Vhozite Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 12 hours ago, elliephil said: In something where pressure is actually real and you're put into a situation to make a decision If a game has real pressure then guard meters should be even less necessary because you’ll just naturally open someone up. Guard meter should be reserved for games where it’s easy to completely block out (literally) an offensive push. Link to comment
elliephil Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Vhozite said: If a game has real pressure then guard meters should be even less necessary because you’ll just naturally open someone up. Guard meter should be reserved for games where it’s easy to completely block out (literally) an offensive push. I guess what I meant was things like real blockstrings. Sfv has maybe like a handful of actual true blockstrings, everything else has huge gaps in pressure but you can't do anything about it except take a huge gamble by spending resources. That's more so a gripe I have with sfv since that design philosophy has dictated entirely how the game has been played and I think it is a really lazy way to build around the problem of removing/not including good defensive options, but that's my personal opinion. I think guard meters maybe get a bad wrap from games like Alpha 3 where bs mechanics like v-ism totally break the game but if you look at more modern examples of them being used such as kof13, I think that is a correct way to use a guard meter. You've been given multiple chances to do something and because you didn't, you get punished. Sometimes it can be a complete knowledge check, other times it's a test of reactions. I think it would make for a more interesting game but the game needs to require it first or be built with it in mind. Sfv would not benefit from this mainly due to how every string involves a frame trap or faux pressure that in any other game would be so easy to get out of. A guard meter is just another way to punish a defensive player for doing things the "right" way (ie not mashing out of untrue strings in fear of eating huge damage) in a game like sfv. So yeah, you're right. It should be for games where continuing to block is easy to do but maybe not the smartest thing to keep doing. If that makes sense. What do I know. Edited November 28, 2021 by elliephil Link to comment
Shakunetsu Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 imagine if this were the kind of FG boss intro for early 90s fgs in arcades the closest were in CVS2 but that 2ks technology was more different and already advance Hawkingbird and AriesWarlock 2 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Man, twitter is angry AF that Infiltration won the Asia qualifier. Phantom_Miria, Darc_Requiem, Volt and 5 others 1 7 Link to comment
Pair of Rooks Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 5 days ago an old friend came by for a visit and it was a blast elliephil 1 Link to comment
HeavensCloud Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Finally a tier list that has Cammy and Urien alone in S tier. Clearly the two best characters in the game at the moment. Link to comment
Phantom_Miria Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Sonero said: Man, twitter is angry AF that Infiltration won the Asia qualifier. Hawkingbird, Volt, Sonero and 3 others 1 5 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 1 hour ago, HeavensCloud said: Finally a tier list that has Cammy and Urien alone in S tier. How the fuck is Cammy S tier after doing the same ol' bullshit from season 1? Fam, she got one relevant buff to v-trigger in 5 years and that's it. Volt 1 Link to comment
HeavensCloud Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Sonero said: How the fuck is Cammy S tier after doing the same ol' bullshit from season 1? She's been top tier every season and other characters around her got worse. She has the best results of any character this year. Cammy and Urien are the two most popular characters in SFL Japan by far. Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 30 minutes ago, HeavensCloud said: She's been top tier every season and other characters around her got worse. She has the best results of any character this year. Cammy and Urien are the two most popular characters in SFL Japan by far. But that's the thing. She hasn't really gained a multitude of tools like a bunch of other characters have. She's basically played the same since season 1. That's not even much of a gross exageration either. Outside of like....maybe one situational combo involving the buff to VT1, there's nothing dramatically better from her than season 1. In fact she got a few nerfs since then. So with a few nerfs, her gameplan of cr.mk xx HK spiral arrow dash twice into meaty is apparently leagues better than the rest of the cast. That's hilariously stupid. Link to comment
JustBooming Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 (edited) For those on PS, there's a very meaty 35GB update live now waiting before you can play Same on Steam now, too Edited November 29, 2021 by JustBrowsing elliephil and Sonero 2 Link to comment
elliephil Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Cammy playing chess, while the cast is playing checkers, in a game of connect four. Link to comment
Dayaan Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Cammy is strong. I think Guile is stronger. Strongest character is definitely Akuma, but I think the theoretical ceiling for that character has yet to be approached in the same way Cammy's and Guile's has. Link to comment
FlyingVe Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Giving Cammy a Dive kick has been a problem since they did It in SF4. elliephil 1 Link to comment
elliephil Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 26 minutes ago, FlyingVe said: Giving Cammy a Dive kick has been a problem since they did It in SF4. the funblockables Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, FlyingVe said: Giving Cammy a Dive kick has been a problem since they did It in SF4. Its actually kinda weird how little regard Capcom has for the power of divekicks in SF games. All the way back to Dhalsim drills in ST, them boys are really good. They always end up on some nonsense in every game they are. SF5 probably has them at their most tame TBH. Also HAPPY LUKE DAY! 🙏 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Literally none of Luke's standing normals are plus on block. he only has 3 normals that are + on block, cr.lk, cr.lp, cr.mp and those are +1/+2/+2 respectively. Volt 1 Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 34 minutes ago, Sonero said: Literally none of Luke's standing normals are plus on block. he only has 3 normals that are + on block, cr.lk, cr.lp, cr.mp and those are +1/+2/+2 respectively. His command standing MP, is +2 on Block. If you want to count that one. Link to comment
delete_me Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 On 11/27/2021 at 5:52 PM, Vhozite said: How was omega mode bait? The biggest non character specific change was the input buffer that effectively killed 1 frame links, and that made it into SFV. Even some of the character specific stuff made it, like Ryu’s parries. Because it was really flexible as far as combos go while SFV initially went as far as reducing combo potential from beta to beta to release version. Considering everything else around release SFV, I'm also not entirely sure if the simplified link timing was a result of Omega Mode or just the result of their general approach to be more accessible. I admit I didn't spend too much time with OM as I didn't want to mess up my gameplay in "real" SFIV but for me SFV always felt like the opposite of Omega, i.e. restrictive and rigid. (Which I think they've done a good job of getting away from every since S4, the likes of Gill, Lucia, Akira and Rose etc. all have really cool and different combo routes depending on the situation.) Link to comment
delete_me Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Oh, and I completely forgot about Luke already. But like the wise man I am I blew my last 100k FM into fghting chance the other day to get Rose's default EX colour so no Luke for me anyway. And no, I didn't get the colour. Pair of Rooks, Volt, HeavensCloud and 1 other 4 Link to comment
DoctaMario Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, Sonero said: But that's the thing. She hasn't really gained a multitude of tools like a bunch of other characters have. She's basically played the same since season 1. That's not even much of a gross exageration either. Outside of like....maybe one situational combo involving the buff to VT1, there's nothing dramatically better from her than season 1. In fact she got a few nerfs since then. So with a few nerfs, her gameplan of cr.mk xx HK spiral arrow dash twice into meaty is apparently leagues better than the rest of the cast. That's hilariously stupid. Ken didn't change much at all between 2nd Impact and 3rd Strike, he was mid tier in 2I, but because everyone around him got nerfed, he wound up top 3 in 3s. I've never liked the balancing strategy of nerfing everyone, id rather everyone had some "broken" shit, at least then you know everyone can play their game if the opportunity arises. A lot of modern games just gradually make everyone shittier over time and that's boring. Edited November 29, 2021 by DoctaMario HeavensCloud and Volta 2 Link to comment
Volt Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, Sonero said: How the fuck is Cammy S tier after doing the same ol' bullshit from season 1? Fam, she got one relevant buff to v-trigger in 5 years and that's it. Everyone else getting nerfed. In this game, whenever Cammy is at real top tier, you can take a look at the patch notes and see the former TTs getting hit by that bat. 49 minutes ago, DoctaMario said: I've never liked the balancing strategy of nerfing everyone, id rather everyone had some "broken" shit, at least then you know everyone can play their game if the opportunity arises. A lot of modern games just gradually make everyone shittier over time and that's boring. Depends a lot on the game. Anime and Mahvel are built on this idea and people like these games for it. On the other hand, that's like saying "Man, every meal should have steak in it." At some point, people will want something different. SF getting nasty anime shit would make it pretty much worse than the games that fully commit to it, and that's something that actually happened with 5, mind you. It's just not really SF's thing. Edited November 29, 2021 by Volt Vhozite 1 Link to comment
FlyingVe Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 9 hours ago, Sonero said: Also HAPPY LUKE DAY! So SFV is saved? Link to comment
Volt Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, FlyingVe said: So SFV is saved? Even better, IT'S OVER!!! Volta and Mr.Cipher 2 Link to comment
Dayaan Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, DoctaMario said: Ken didn't change much at all between 2nd Impact and 3rd Strike, he was mid tier in 2I, but because everyone around him got nerfed, he wound up top 3 in 3s. No! Volt 1 Link to comment
Vhozite Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 15 minutes ago, Volt said: SF getting nasty anime shit would make it pretty much worse than the games that fully commit to it, and that's something that actually happened with 5, mind you. It's just not really SF's thing. This is exactly why I don’t like playing hyper aggro characters in Street Fighter. Normal Street Fighter offense is gimped as fuck compared to like any other game it’s so boring. It’s much more engaging to play with slower paced characters because it’s one of the few games where that type of gameplay is common. Volt 1 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, DoctaMario said: Ken didn't change much at all between 2nd Impact and 3rd Strike, Just from playing it a little bit, he doesn't seem to have his lp dp to lp dp juggle, can't do upclose overhead on an opponent without attempting a throw, probably doesn't have universal overhead into super either. Single hit confirming cr.mk into super seems hilariously hard. EX fireball seems way slower.... Nah fam, Man seems to have gotten more changes than cammy did going through season 1 to season 5. Darc_Requiem 1 Link to comment
Dayaan Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, Sonero said: Single hit confirming cr.mk into super seems hilariously hard. It's already hilariously hard. The issue isn't so much saying that he hasn't changed that much (he has), but rather that everyone getting nerfed is why he's top 3. He's top 3 (debatably) for many other reasons. Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 23 minutes ago, FlyingVe said: So SFV is saved? He looks surface level garbage but he just shits out damage. Didnt have time to do super serious labbing though. Think his whiff punish game is going to be a lot more serious than people might imagine. Between forward moving normals and a ridiculously fast fireball, he has the horizontal space covered pretty nicely. At worst he can whiff punish with the st.mp autocombo that knocks down and leaves him at +4 after dash. Does 150ish damage so its not a wash in terms of whiff punishes. His charged qcb combos feel good to do. Its like an execution compromise. You don't need jt to have fun with him, but at mid/high level there's a big difference in damage. Think I like that better than just frame inputs. Haven't had a chance to play him, but I like his moveset way more than I thought I would. We going from Memes to Dreams, baby. Pair of Rooks, Reticently, Darc_Requiem and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment
BornWinner Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Delay BASED netcode. Sonero, Jurassic, HeavensCloud and 5 others 1 7 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 So far I really like Luke. Played the story mode and it made me really like him. Turn on matchmaking..like 4 minutes to find an opponent. SF5 online is such a mess. Strive is way better than this for better or worse. Bigtochiro and Volt 1 1 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 people fly at me at high speeds in strive: can anti air. People do a 40 frame jump in SF5's netcode: get bodied. Holy shit this netcode is balls. It might be better in PC but this is just unplayable garbage. Luke is kinda dope, but he isn't "put up with SF5's awful everything" type of dope. Vhozite 1 Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Sonero said: Just from playing it a little bit, he doesn't seem to have his lp dp to lp dp juggle, can't do upclose overhead on an opponent without attempting a throw, probably doesn't have universal overhead into super either. Single hit confirming cr.mk into super seems hilariously hard. EX fireball seems way slower.... Nah fam, Man seems to have gotten more changes than cammy did going through season 1 to season 5. I'm inclined to agree with you. From my recollection SF3 wasn't the "stay the same" type of game when it came to changes. Ibuki is a different character in all three versions of the game. Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Well SF5 online is unplayable trash. that's not even an exaggeration. I'm spending my days in the east coast servers for Strive and my connections are great like 95% of the time. I tried playing this a bit and basically everything was just garbage. Link to comment
Vhozite Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Yeah playing a game with good online makes it super obvious when a game has shit net code or whatever else in terms of online. Volt 1 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Whatever else is correct. I dont know why I ever took this game seriously. Should've just quit playing FGs back in 2015 and saved myself the trouble of ever dealing with this game. 🤣🤣🤣 Link to comment
elliephil Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, Sonero said: Well SF5 online is unplayable trash. Street Fighter 5 years of pain 😃 Sonero 1 Link to comment
FlyingVe Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 5 minutes ago, Sonero said: Whatever else is correct. I dont know why I ever took this game seriously. Should've just quit playing FGs back in 2015 and saved myself the trouble of ever dealing with this game. 🤣🤣🤣 To be fair to SFV, when it came out it did have good net code relative to others. For a decent chunk of the last console generation, KI was the only game with good net code, and the old Arksys Delay code was still considered fine. Other games having good net code is a really new development, maybe one of the few good things that has come out of COVID. elliephil, Darc_Requiem, HeavensCloud and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 12 minutes ago, FlyingVe said: To be fair to SFV Nah. I'm not gonna be fair to shit. Luke is really cool and if the netcode was actually great, I'd probably jump back on it. But there's not much point to getting good under these conditions. Either strive or back to them sweet single player games. Mr.Cipher, Pair of Rooks, Volt and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment
Volt Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 40 minutes ago, FlyingVe said: To be fair to SFV, when it came out it did have good net code relative to others. For a decent chunk of the last console generation, KI was the only game with good net code, and the old Arksys Delay code was still considered fine. When it came out, people were appalled by this netcode and it led to people that didn't know better unironically saying rollback wasn't shit and delay was better. People with a shred of knowledge were cooking Capcom over it because Skullgirls had that shit solved. Let's also remember that some random dude outright made major improvements to the netcode by himself, explained the issue, made it open-source so Capcom could just snatch it up and fix the game, but they were too proud to admit the netcode was buns and made some half-baked attempt to fix it instead. When SNK and GOATSys started putting up legit top-tier netcode games, people immediately jumped on them because of how trash SFV's netcode was. So, to be fair to SFV, the game was dogshit from the jump. Whole game was a bust. Throw it all in the trash. Scorched earth. 🤣 Bigtochiro 1 Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Think ArcSys set a high bar that companies need to understand exists now. It needs to be that level of good. Hell SF5 doesn't even run properly on the base PS4 it was designed for. It was made explicitly for the console it runs the worst on. We can roast SF4 for unblockables, OSes etc, But if we're gonna be on that, we gotta start making the list of shame for SF5 to be: couldn't even play people in your city without the game stuttering like a nervous virgin in a whole house. Volt 1 Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 In 2016, relative to it's Japanese contemporaries, SFV's netcode wasn't bad. Problem is Netherrealm ripped apart an existing game Unreal 3 Engine based fighting game that wasn't designed for rollback netcode and added it in at great expense. KI was budget as hell and had great rollback netcode. SFV was designed with rollback in mind, there is no way you can tell me it was cheaper for Netherrealm to fix MKX's netcode than it would have been for Capcom to fix SFV's. Especially when budget ass MVC: Infinite has solid netcode. So they already had a better version of their in house netcode available. And the comment on MVCI's netcode isn't just anecdotal. Fans of the game literally grew their own scene, even during the pandemic, thanks to the quality of the games netcode. FlyingVe and Hawkingbird 2 Link to comment
FlyingVe Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, Sonero said: Think ArcSys set a high bar that companies need to understand exists now. They still don't have net code as good as KI or MK, So what standard are they setting? They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present, and in doing so have achieved what should be considered the minimum. I stand by my statement. No SFV net code isn't good, but when it came out, it was the best outside of KI and the few GGPO games (eg Skullgirls). The difference is, in the last year other companies have done rollback better so the 6 year old game looks way more dated. 13 minutes ago, Volt said: Let's also remember that some random dude outright made major improvements to the netcode by himself, explained the issue, made it open-source so Capcom could just snatch it up and fix the game, but they were too proud to admit the netcode was buns and made some half-baked attempt to fix it instead. Kinda? This hack helped some things but broke others. I'm not surprised Capcom didn't use it pride or no. Volt 1 Link to comment
elliephil Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 Sfv netcode was a big upgrade from sf4 for sure. The game had that input delay in the beginning didn't it? Some people came to conclusions that it was to make offline and online play similar from my understanding. Not sure if that was actually the case, but while the netcode is not good for sfv, it's like @FlyingVesaid, the bar set really low even 5 years ago. Still makes me wonder why ggpo hasn't been adopted more frequently, it's free ffs Link to comment
Sonero Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 12 minutes ago, FlyingVe said: They still don't have net code as good as KI or MK, Strive is the standard because its a game thats not trash with good netcode. FOH with those games that Japanese people don't play. SMH. Bigtochiro, Volt and Hawkingbird 1 1 1 Link to comment
FlyingVe Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 I won't defend MK. But KI is definitely a better game than Strive. Even LK commonly jokes that KI is the game that fighting game players keep saying they want. Volt 1 Link to comment
FlyingVe Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 16 minutes ago, elliephil said: Still makes me wonder why ggpo hasn't been adopted more frequently, it's free ffs According to some Devs, that's one of those "says easy does hard" things. Link to comment
elliephil Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, FlyingVe said: According to some Devs, that's one of those "says easy does hard" things. Interesting. I'm not going to sit here and pretend I know anything about it but I hope they at least consider developing games with ggpo in mind going forward. (A tale as old as time at this point.) Strive netcode is amazing and would be ideal, but I think most of us would be cool with above average ggpo rollback. Edited November 29, 2021 by elliephil Link to comment
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