The Street Fighter VI Story Thread: Shadaloo Died so Luke Could Live!

YagamiFire · May 4, 2023

5 hours ago, Daemos said:

All other bosses, including Akuma, Gill and JP tried to establish themselves on the shoulders of Bison. Only Akuma succeeded in becoming something truly great and popular.

KOF has done way better with their bosses, honestly.

They first established Rugal, an all-time classic boss that stands shoulder to shoulder with someone like Bison in terms of being an overt bad-ass antagonist. Then they brought in the Orochi, using Rugal as a springboard for the MUCH larger Orochi saga and the villains in it who didn't require Rugal at all to stand on their own. After Orochi, they brought in NESTs who needed nothing from Rugal nor Orochi to establish themselves (becoming my personal favorite villain group in fighting games)...and then they went on to bring in Those From the Past who drew on Orochi stuff due to its popularity and continuing relevance. The weakest angle of all of those ages of villains are TFTP because they were Orochi-adjacent...BUT they established themselves quite well by being very unique and tied into the current main characters. After all that, we then got the all new Verse stuff and a main tournament organizer (Antanov) that is one of the best new bosses introduced in any fighting game in a long time largely because he's NOT villainous and is a genuinely nice guy.

SF has struggled to ever get away from Bison. Dude casts a huge shadow for better and, sometimes, for worse, on the entire franchise. They need to be able to get away from that I think. Hopefully JP is a step in that direction.

YagamiFire · May 4, 2023

2 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

Necalli writing has been as quintessential example of capcom shitwriting and lack of balls as you can get, all about rely on cashcows at story development/evolution expense

Yes. This.

CESTUS III · May 4, 2023

3 hours ago, Daemos said:

Not sure why you think Seth treatment is poor, he's an excellent character who is very layered.

Very first Seth concept was very refined design with lot of potential

The nostalgic and aristocratic vibes were there to hint a lab freak that after gaining self awareness developed a love-hate relationship with humanity, wanting to proof himself superior being but at same digging with both hands in our culture

He of course want to distance himself from other clones, his clear love for some kind of style and finesse was a noble human cosplay and he used to cover most of his body

Did'nt lasted much

Seth became a lab freak that after gaining self awareness showed himself as... a naked lab freak, who does lab freak things, in a lab (just like other clones lmao). Holy fuck.

Essentially throwing out of the window anything was good of original concept

Then we see all that "NEW BOSS" potential was a farce. Bison make short work of him (with capcom blowjobbing Bison through Juri's disappointment), because as usual capcom fail at commit on new villains and turn them into food for cashcows

Not that naked lab freak, in a lab, Seth deserved anything better btw

Then they completely drop the SF4 concept and in a desperate attempt to make him more marktable they literally turn him into lab freak waifu

Then they do nothing with waifu Seth either lol

Stop me when he get good, must be in some later phase i may have missed

Seth was treated just like a zero ambition filler villain, and was'nt even well developed at that

They murdered his character design, the whole imagery of his org/world was barely showed, he had nowhere near the characterization or world building as Bison had with SF2 or Gill with SF3

He existed just the time it took to get rid of him, with his whole arc feeling like a shadaloo filler story lol

Not even sure if happened due lazy half ass mindset, actual bad priorities choices or because his whole existence in their mind was just all a big waste of time excuse to get Bison under the spotlight again while doing nothing meaningful... i'm not even sure wich would be worst reason lol

Just like... "This is Necalli, he's a millenary creature that eats fighters and that's about it! Here, take 3 Bengus pieces showing a what if prophecy...it's lore!!1!"

We never seen much of Necalli's past

Never seen his actually awakening from, i know it's small deal, millenary sleep

We did'nt seen shit of his whole aztec world imagery

Nothing

We just got millenary being Necalli join SF, then disappear from relevance in the same way he appeared, like a fart

But not before have used him to show "old villains were better", lol capcom in a nutshell

2 hours ago, Daemos said:

Despite a minor blurb in the 90s about how the SS were involved in manipulating world events including Shadaloo, no one knew or gave a shit about Gill in 1997.

Gill was reintroduced to gamers more than 2 decades after SF3 as one of the architects behind Shadaloo's fall and as the key backer of several of SF5's main protagonists. His entire prophecy from his 2I ending was reinterpreted to apply to Bison's grand plan. Literally, the character's first claim to fame in the lore chronologically is helping bring down its main villain because HE WANTS TO BE THE MAIN GUY.

I'll give credit to 5 though, it made me like Gill a lot more than before.

Not even sure how to reply to this lol

You said Gill as a villain exist thanks to Bison legacy

I proven you that when Gill was released in SF3 the story gave zero fucks about Bison or Shadaloo

Because SF3 had 99 problems, first of wich SF2 cast retard genocide (wich made part of me hate it), but at least they had balls and ambition to push new things without subservient mindset

Your reply being something like "yeah but nobody cares about SF3/GILL!" does'nt disprove in any way the fact Gill/SS were designed as completely new, indipendent and self sufficient concepts

You can downplay SF3 relevance and i've no problem recognize SF3 was'nt relevant as SF2 (no SF game has been) specially since i prefer the latter, but fact that Gill as Boss had nothing to do with Bison it's hardly debatable

Now returning to SFV as i said i liked how they handled Gill, likely because he had the luck of start as an already estabilished char and they could not half ass handle him like a silly Seth/Necalli somebody (actually they feed G and even Urien as jobbers for him lol)

I'm not even sure why you're pulling on me Gill using Bison's moon as prophecy like some sort of proof, i was literally the guy telling you about this hidden but pretty straightforward possibility in this thread

It's a clearly wrong or biased interpretation try to paint it as if SFV Gill "wants to be like Bison" (the main guy in your words), because lore wise we know Gill view of Bison run is unlikely to be that respectful or admired

Gill have gigantic ego

SS by SFV time is hinted to be already a larger and more influential entity than Shadaloo ever been

Gill is likely confident he would beat Bison in a fight (right or wrong, i would not open this here)

Using the fake prophecy we talked about, Gill seems to want use whole Bison moons thing as advantage to push his own narrative... but that it's not much the method of the small flea riding on big dog back, more like how a powerful politician would use the tantrum of some ugly bearded terrorist as excuse to push his own campaign

If anything just show Gill being the perfect middle way between Bison and JP mindsets.... he surely hold in high regard fighters/fighting (who would be his people in his new world) but he appreciate also play chess with people lives keeping his diaper on the throne far from the action

Rather than GILL wanting to be the new Bison (Gill would ask "why downgrade?"), is all about Capcom having just shot their Bison bullet with SFV ASF and dropping a teaser of Gill being next villain because timeline wise after ASF we have SF3 events

The true Bison-derivative villains were

Akuma - literally whole marketing street creds of this trash tryhard sprite recycle of Ryu/Ken were based on him making debut one-shotting Bison

Seth - subproduct by design, but they threw the chance of use it as starting point for something good rather than being his final destination (with a short meaningless path as trash char)

That's about it

Necalli has been used to hype both Bison and Akuma, all while NOT being developed himself because -insert reasons-

3 hours ago, Daemos said:

Akuma is a better Necalli. Garuda is a better Necalli.

Holy fuck

By concept Necalli was/could have been much better and original than either

Fact itself we're even debating this feels like just more proof Nec was handled like crap by people that for a reason or another gave us an half-ass mediocre product just to have a char without much meaning beyond being an useful tool to develop or hype other characters

3 hours ago, Daemos said:

And if they wanted to emulate Jojo's Pillar Men, Gill did it better first.

This just feels like one of these things the community keep repeat till somehow same people starts believe it

Gill had not much in common with Pillar Men beyond maybe look (wich is far more likely coming from HnK Yuda) and his respect for nature/animals

Lot of Gill had much to do with Saint Seiya Saga/Gemini (Gill himself was called Gemini in concept phase), for many many reasons that i will not list here now

Nobody in SF was "doing" (better or worse) Pillar Men, till SFV straight ripped off Pillar Men from JoJo to do Necalli

They did, they even made one of the largest shark jumping of SF history to do it (Necalli is VERY far from usual grounded SF world)... and then they did nothing with it

The use they did of Necalli in SF world has been like introduce a GoT style fire breathing dragon in a Cobra Kai episode and use it to make Johnny cook a steak

Then have it fly away when steak is cooked enough

Actually this sounds awesome, while Necalli story was just mediocre

Edited May 4, 2023 by CESTUS III

CESTUS III · May 4, 2023

10 minutes ago, YagamiFire said:

SF has struggled to ever get away from Bison. Dude casts a huge shadow for better and, sometimes, for worse, on the entire franchise. They need to be able to get away from that I think. Hopefully JP is a step in that direction.

And Akuma is even worse

Imagine a capcom creative team being forced at gun point to design a NEW villain able to easily beat the fuck out of Akuma

Half team will have heart attack, other half would scream crying "just shoot us, you bastard!"

Original sin was make of Akuma Ryu's ultimate goal

Now we will never get rid of that crap that cripple whole SF villains world building, and if we do to some extent Ryu die

Daemos · May 4, 2023

45 minutes ago, YagamiFire said:

SF has struggled to ever get away from Bison. Dude casts a huge shadow for better and, sometimes, for worse, on the entire franchise. They need to be able to get away from that I think. Hopefully JP is a step in that direction.

Well the audience reaction speaks for itself. SF fans love their characters, and they play them endlessly. Akuma and Bison have huge appeal and brand recognition, but importantly people LOVE playing them. Capcom cannot deny this.

At best, Capcom try to create space and time to let other characters shine. Borrowed space and time, which they will inevitably yield back to the popular characters. In that window, new IPs have to shine and gain traction or they will not make it to the next generation. Necalli, Seth, Juri, were all given the platform to command attention, not all of them made it.

JP now has an opportunity to shine and stand on his own, if he doesn't he'll disappear and that is no fault of Bison or Akuma. Capcom did their part, Most franchises would *kill* to have villainous characters like these.

I don't personally like Akuma, but the way he resonates with audiences is so very palpable. Truly an iconic character in video gaming. I'm glad that his fans get to enjoy him again.

I won't disagree with you about SNK, they definitely did the whole boss/story thing better, but as I said the story serves the characters in SF not the other way around. The story won't get in the way of character popularity again. Capcom keep investing in their mainline characters because they recognize that as what is valuable. SNK doesn't have this view with their villains.

The best players who are "sick" of Bison can get is what we have now. A short-lived hiatus. Let them make the most of it if they truly support these new "villains" (by playing them!), because he is coming.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Daemos

Doctrine_Dark · May 4, 2023

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

I am hoping for a JP/Nayshall Tournament setting with him as the final boss.

What I think we're getting is that the story of SF6 on year 1 is only the first chapter, possibly even the prologue to a series of decentralized events that will unfold over the next 7-8 years. This probably means that Arcade Mode will have personal bosses, and that there is no one singular villain that catches the attention of everyone.

That's what I'm expecting as well.

I'm guessing this is the boss battle dialogue between Kim and JP. JP's "Seems like you're done. How unfortunate" reminded me of the dialogue during SF4's rival battle whenever someone lost.

CESTUS III · May 4, 2023

13 minutes ago, Daemos said:

At best, Capcom try to create space and time to let other characters shine. Borrowed space and time, which they will inevitably yield back to the popular characters. In that window, new IPs have to shine and gain traction or they will not make it to the next generation. Necalli, Seth, Juri, were all given the platform to command attention, not all of them made it.

It's hard to blame on character's concept ability to win audience within their chapter of debut, if developers do shit job at develop good concepts though

Lot of very iconic characters would probably not survive this test if they were released today and supported like some half ass attempts i seen in SFV lol

Can't speak for SF6 (wich seem made with pride and love) but recent SF history had clear problem at build up new faces, unless said new faces somehow managed to win audience on their own without much Capcom help

General audience having shit tastes does'nt help either

CESTUS III · May 4, 2023

Some SF3 wierdness

POV you remember Remy exist but make the gif short because nobody will riot over Remy anyway

This was lot of fun to do, tricky challenge

With the right clothes he may look legit lol

Love the last shot being creepy af

Daemos · May 4, 2023

36 minutes ago, CESTUS III said:

Lot of very iconic characters would probably not survive this test if they were released today and supported like some half ass attempts i seen in SFV lol

That's not really relevant though. These characters were released at a different time and have stood the test of time.

37 minutes ago, CESTUS III said:

It's hard to blame on character's concept ability to win audience within their chapter of debut, if developers do shit job at develop good concepts though

I believe the SF developers do their best at the time. They are fans of the series, and they work with what they know. Things are either going to click or they won't. Juri was an instant hit for example. Viper was given a lot of spotlight in the beginning and she just didn't connect as much.

They are not ashamed of revisiting good ideas that didn't work as well the first time round (see Seth) and try to give them another shot.

Of the SF5 characters, Rashid made a big splash in earlier seasons and was picked up by a lot of people. Ed also came into his own in later seasons. The idea of FANG is also something they still want so AKI. Capcom clearly see these characters as worthy of another opportunity and are banking on them.

So I don't think they are NOT trying to build up new faces, but they won't put their eggs in one basket. SF2 characters will always be there right next to them to pick up the pieces when the new characters "fail" (and many of them will it's just natural).

Daemos · May 4, 2023

5 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

Necalli is BY FAR the most ancient and supernatural being compared to Bison, Gill, Akuma or even Oro

When Pillar Men appeared in JoJo they were the fucking big deal, the origin of their evil was so ancient and deep that Jonathan and Dio problems felt surface af

Capcom created a SF world Pillar Man that in theory could/should have made other baddies look like kids... and all they could do, has been use him as a jobber

All while using him as some sort of tryhard important Ryu moment, while at same time losing to Rog of all people lmao

To make a VERY cheap example

Narrative wise hey could have made up a Ryu-age Akuma disciple or some other normal human that use a type of ki based on murder intent for that, some sort of mini-Akuma test, able to put Ryu in serious danger but no comparable to Akuma himself, would have made sense

Instead they made up the most mythological and supernatural being of SF universe, just to have him play side role of shit stepstone in our dear awkward SFV story

Let that sink

Wanted to respond to this separately. I think most of us are in agreement that this was a poorly handled concept and it could've been done differently then. But instead I'd like to focus on what could be done moving forward to potentially salvage this concept.

I think with Evil Ryu potentially gone for good (doubtful 😕) and Akuma becoming less mysterious/more of a regular, there is an opening for Necalli to fill. The concept has to be reworked slightly and I think they should double-down on the supernatural demon-ghost/shapeshifting element (both in gameplay and aesthetic) to replace Kage/Oni. Like since there are no V-triggers in SF6, base Necalli will have to be VT Necalli (the best part about the character) and work up from there.

Lore-wise Necalli can be reintroduced as a secret boss character that shows up anywhere in WTM if certain conditions are met. (kinda like what Akuma was in some games), His modus operandi would be unchanged (attracted to chaos/strong warriors, always hungry) but they just mature it into something respectable like Garuda. This allows the character to exist within the universe but without breaking the canon. He'll still give powerful albeit outlying villain vibes, and Capcom can use him as a tool down the line to eat characters they don't like if so they choose to.

TL;DR

Take the character to its logical conclusion (Garuda/Oni mashup to spiritually replace Kage/Oni for good).