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The Guilty Gear general: Getting Wildly Assaulted in the Keyhole

ZioSerpe

By ZioSerpe
in Fighting Game Discussion

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Shakunetsu Level 17

Shakunetsu

Posted
Posted

Hi guys, 

 

Im not a guilty gear player, and the last GG i played was Slash or reload, I stumbled upon several FG analysis videos from time to time, that praise the burst mechanic

 

I know many had dislike an idea of combo breaker in Mahvel like games, like mega crush in TVC.

 

What makes a burst mechanics positive and has depth in GG titles and why it can't work the same way in Mahvel? Is just because it's punishable? or I missed a lot more in the technical side. 

 

What also do you think with Mahvel's newest feature in MVC-infinite that is variable counters? is it terrible? Is it worst than Burst or a plain combo breaker. Or do you think its an interesting mechanic?

 

 

 

 

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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

What makes a burst mechanics positive and has depth in GG titles and why it can't work the same way in Mahvel? Is just because it's punishable? or I missed a lot more in the technical side.

So just my read on it but I think the following things are factors:

 

  • As you said, Burst is punishable. Its actually an interactive combo breaker that way, in that the attacker can try to bait it/blow it up (depending on the game) and thus the attacker feels like they still have offensive agency.
  • Similarly, Burst isn't a get-out-of-jail free card. The hitbox of the burst needs to connect to save you, and it can be blocked/thrown (depending on the game) so you can't be too obvious as to when you use it. Because of that, the defender needs to be mindful of how they apply the "combo breaker". I think "automatic" combo breakers generate more frustration because the attacker does not feel like they can control the situation, or that they will inevitably have to just eat the CB to be able to play the game the way they want to.
  • It is very clear when Burst is available, and it doesn't regenerate particularly quickly. So you're probably only dealing with it once a round most of the time and it is really obvious when it is on the table.
  • Burst has always been in GG. I think there is a lot to be said for player expectations based on legacy (look at SF for example) so if you're sitting down to play GG you know Burst is a thing. Adding CBs to other games can feel a lot more disruptive (even if that entry was totally designed around it) to legacy players because they don't have that association built in.

CBs are an interesting thing to consider but I think hitting the balance on them is difficult. Hell if you look at NRS they're still trying to find a breaker system they like and they are 3 iterations in (4 if you count Injustice). As games have slowly grown more combo heavy I think it is natural to try to consider things like CBs as a way to keep the game from becoming a 1 player exercise, but I feel like a fair number of systems I've run into feel sort of tacked on in a way that doesn't make anyone happy.

 

tldr: Burst is nifty and continues to be. Just let ArcSys make all future games. 🙃

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Shakunetsu Level 17

Shakunetsu

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, GetTheTables said:

Similarly, Burst isn't a get-out-of-jail free card. The hitbox of the burst needs to connect to save you, and it can be blocked/thrown (depending on the game) so you can't be too obvious as to when you use it. Because of that, the defender needs to be mindful of how they apply the "combo breaker". I think "automatic" combo breakers generate more frustration because the attacker does not feel like they can control the situation, or that they will inevitably have to just eat the CB to be able to play the game the way they want to.

 

 

How do you know it might be coming, is it telegraph by certain spark or animation?

 

or because it had a separate dedicated gauge which makes it effective than how the others implement it? 

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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Shakunetsu said:

 

 

How do you know it might be coming, is it telegraph by certain spark or animation?

 

or because it had a separate dedicated gauge which makes it effective than how the others implement it? 

I'm still a GG noob so take this with a grain of salt but so far as I know Bursts are unreactable. However I think that is also what makes them work so well in practice.

 

Because they are unreactable, the attacker either has to make the read as to when they think their opponent will Burst - which involves understanding their own combo structure, their opponent's tendencies, how much health the opponent has, if Burst is even on the table - or try to close out the round with Burst-safe options - combos that don't have an easy/reasonable Burst point (see Rev Johnny), throws, or supers.

 

And since it is a read, the defender also gets to have steps in this dance because they can try to throw off their opponent's guess by Bursting with a different timing, scrambling to force unfavorable hit situations (which may lead to a Burstable route when the opponent otherwise would have kept it safe), or just having big 'ol balls and not bursting at all (assuming they won't die) then using their opponent's burst bait/combo flub/whatever opportunity to get back into the game. 

 

Its this interaction which I think makes the mechanic interesting and fun because its ultimately still the two players making choices and throwing them at each other, then seeing who was right. I.e. the core of what makes FGs fun in the first place. 🙂  Any mechanic that starts to get away from that interaction starts to take things in a worse direction at least in terms of long term fun-factor.

 

Also worth noting is that Burst isn't just a defensive mechanic. You can Gold Burst to try to give yourself 100% meter which can be just as big of a momentum shift as a Burst, sometimes more so given how much GG and particularly Strive lets you go fucking ham with RC based pressure and combo extension.

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Volta Level 11

Volta

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

Hi guys, 

 

Im not a guilty gear player, and the last GG i played was Slash or reload, I stumbled upon several FG analysis videos from time to time, that praise the burst mechanic

 

I know many had dislike an idea of combo breaker in Mahvel like games, like mega crush in TVC.

 

What makes a burst mechanics positive and has depth in GG titles and why it can't work the same way in Mahvel? Is just because it's punishable? or I missed a lot more in the technical side. 

 

What also do you think with Mahvel's newest feature in MVC-infinite that is variable counters? is it terrible? Is it worst than Burst or a plain combo breaker. Or do you think its an interesting mechanic?

 

 

 

 

GGs gameplay is already very lopsided in attacking players' favor with the burst factored in. Without it, top tier characters such as Chipp and Sol would be even more oppressive. 

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Mr.Cipher Level 11

Mr.Cipher

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

Hi guys, 

 

Im not a guilty gear player, and the last GG i played was Slash or reload, I stumbled upon several FG analysis videos from time to time, that praise the burst mechanic

 

I know many had dislike an idea of combo breaker in Mahvel like games, like mega crush in TVC.

 

What makes a burst mechanics positive and has depth in GG titles and why it can't work the same way in Mahvel? Is just because it's punishable? or I missed a lot more in the technical side. 

 

What also do you think with Mahvel's newest feature in MVC-infinite that is variable counters? is it terrible? Is it worst than Burst or a plain combo breaker. Or do you think its an interesting mechanic?

 

 

 

 

 

Burst is a multilayerd Mechanic.

It is way more than just "lol Combo Breaker"

First of all the Attack has a hitbox and can be thrown with an airthrow, it can be baited and punished on whiff/block.

It is a defensive mechanic.

Except that it's not, it is a Comeback Mechanic.

By bursting and hitting the Burst, you kill your opponents Momentum and actually can go on the offence yourself. Except the opponent can do the same, so it's a Mechanic to denie combacks.

Except it's not, because there is this thing called Gold Burst, that gives you full Meter when it hits.

 

Burst can do a lot of things and the depth comes from how the player is going to use it and how the opponent anticipates it.

BB has something similar with it's Overdrive System.

15 minutes ago, Volta said:

GGs gameplay is already very lopsided in attacking players' favor with the burst factored in. Without it, top tier characters such as Chipp and Sol would be even more oppressive. 

 

GGs offence is so stupid, because there are literally more defensive mechanics in any GG, than most other FGs have mechanics in total.

Instablock, Barrier, does Instablock Barrier work in GG?, Dead Angles, Burst, every game specific defensive mechanic,such a Blitz.

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, BornWinner said:

Wait there’s a character besides that one pose?

 


Also this one narrator is getting work. Good for him.

Jack-O seems even more complicated now.  It lost me when you can only run backwards while holding an item. That's not very Smash of you, Daisuke.

 

Let me be the first to switch back to my old main Ky. 😅

 

EDIT I do like being able to z-drop with dust, but if you can't jump over someone while doing it then what is even the point.

Edited by Pair of Rooks
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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

Posted
Posted

Tried to read it this morning but my eyes were tired and the text was tiny on my phone. There are a couple of hits in there but its overall they weren't kidding about not rocking the boat too much.

 

Ram buffs were unexpected, curious as to what the Dauro buff leads to. The Agresa Ordonto buff feels random but hey why not. j.HS nerf makes total sense, that button is so damn good.

 

Interesting in continuing to work on I-No with those changes. Not that I know a lot with her but just faster dash movement sounds pretty great. Hopefully the timing of the patch lines up with when I'll be able to start playing again.

 

Rooks I take it that Ky didn't get the changes you were hoping for? 🙂

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BornWinner Level 17

BornWinner

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, GetTheTables said:

Ram buffs were unexpected, curious as to what the Dauro

Some people think it could lead to FarS > 5HS > Darou restand, making her mid screen game more of an option. I’m real excited for these changes. Thought she was going to be hit harder with the Twitter force complaining about everything. Glad the team tried to buff everyone as well in some way.

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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, BornWinner said:

Some people think it could lead to FarS > 5HS > Darou restand, making her mid screen game more of an option. I’m real excited for these changes. Thought she was going to be hit harder with the Twitter force complaining about everything. Glad the team tried to buff everyone as well in some way.

Yeah that is my read on it as well. Honestly I can't see anything else it can be, given that is the main scenario it doesn't work in currently. Like maybe they are buffing it to be more consistent but I don't think so. f.S, HSxxDauro definitely sounds delicious. 

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Jocelot Level 14

Jocelot

Posted
Posted

I'm relieved, it looks like this balance patch tuned down some of Sol's stupidity (aka f.S)  and buffed his other tools so you have an actual incentive to use them. I think that's good overall.

 

And it looks like everyone else got a bit of Sol buffed into their kits, which I also consider a good thing. Maybe I'll give Anji another chance before I ditch him completely for Happy Chaos

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, BornWinner said:

Some people think it could lead to FarS > 5HS > Darou restand, making her mid screen game more of an option. I’m real excited for these changes. Thought she was going to be hit harder with the Twitter force complaining about everything. Glad the team tried to buff everyone as well in some way.

I think most decent players have found a way to deal with her with their chosen character. Plus she isn't tearing it up in tourneys either. I'm fine with Ram's improvements on her lesser used options. 

 

The whole patch is trying to buff everyone. Does arcsys put hidden changes in their patches? 

 

11 hours ago, GetTheTables said:

Rooks I take it that Ky didn't get the changes you were hoping for? 🙂

Stun Dipper got a QoL buff / bugfix, we think. I mean one way of making it connect reliably is the slide kick not moving at all. 🤪 Maybe they did that.

 

Arcsys realized the edgelord super that prevents meter gain for the rest of the round isn't as popular as using that meter for literally anything else. So the buff is now you can gain meter again like a normal person. I feel like a Faust main. "We added a brand new 'wall break' mechanic to your super..."

 

Arcsys has recognized that 2S has more range, better startup, less likely to get your sword punched, and same comboability as f.S, so no one used f.S.  The fix?  f.S slides more.  It still has negative disjoint. Unlike 6H. Which has a lot of disjoint. And reach. So you don't need to slide. 

 

Meanwhile Leo players were having trouble opening ppl up and an Axl somewhere almost lost to a Goldlewis so BUT HEY at least I'm not a Gio main where the buff is when you drop your combo on purpose...

 

 

 

Edited by Pair of Rooks
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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, Pair of Rooks said:

BUT HEY at least I'm not a Gio main where the buff is when you drop your combo on purpose...

 

No the buff was for this weird sky rekka thing that doesn't hit properly now gives better oki if you use it.

 

What oki? Well of course it'll be a c.S because she isn't really mixing you with much.

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted

Axl buffs got me uncomfortable.

 

Anji buffs got me scared.

 

😳

 

Sol got the nerfs and berfs he deserved.

 

Most Ky players are happy. Stun Dipper grants oki, f.S recovers faster, and comboing into DI super is easy on top of it not destroying your meter for the rest of the round.

 

Not the buffs I wanted, other than SD being reliable, but most Kys are super optimistic rn.

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Vhozite Level 15

Vhozite

Posted
Posted

Checked out Jack-O and the new patch.

 

Game is better but not enough for me to play it yet. Was hopeful Millia's faster disc comboed from fS but it doesn't of course lol. Jack-O is super one dimensional...all she does is manage minions, but maybe she was like that in Xrd I wouldn't know. Like Axl's snail buff too.

 

I will say that I really like how the patch notes were very light on nerfs. Almost across the board buffs is good to see. Also love tat they explained the rationale behind everything.

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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

Posted
Posted

OFC that was a Chipp player.

 

Also:

14 hours ago, Vhozite said:

Jack-O is super one dimensional...all she does is manage minions, but maybe she was like that in Xrd I wouldn't know.

I didn't play Jack-O in Xrd but I did check her out (and not just for the crouching animation). She's always been super heavy into the minion management. In Xrd she actually had to manage their goofy little minion houses. This version definitely seems more streamlined (or maybe just refined) but yeah that's her thing.

 

Jack-O: Thirst and Minions.

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Phantom_Miria Level 16

Phantom_Miria

Posted
Posted

People who actually played Xrd seem to hate Xrd's Jack-O', or at least that's the clear impression I'm having.

The idea I've got is that she used to be very reliant on the minion houses, her gameplan was always centered around them regardless of matchup, and so with every character it always turned into trying to stop Jack-O' from setting up her houses or she would win by swarming you, and if she failed to set up those houses she would lose.

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Phantom_Miria said:

People who actually played Xrd seem to hate Xrd's Jack-O', or at least that's the clear impression I'm having.

 

She was one of those classic ArcSys designs of "put a bunch of shit on screen and hold that". Thankfully they nerfed her from arcade beta to home release (in arcade beta, the minions stayed on screen even if you hit her, thankfully it was changed). Even then its this weird nonsense of too much on screen. 

 

The houses could level up too. So the minions got stronger the longer the houses were in play. 

 

It got tedious really fast.

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