The Cartoons and Animation Thread

[Darc_Requiem]

Honestly the red head to black swap seems more prominent in DC.

 

Jimmy Olsen

Iris West

Wally West

Barbara Gordon

 

Come to mind of the top of my head, but it's not exclusive to Marvel or DC. Given that Revelations was recent topic. Andra was a red head that was swapped to black for the series.

[HD-Man]

Well, Xavier and Magneto loosely based on MLK and Malcom X, them being turned black wouldn't be considered woke in my book, actually quite on brand 🤣

[MillionX]

Some of this is probably just the suits going with that idea of "there's no such thing as 'bad' publicity.."....basically doing it like a clickbait sort of thing --- they know that any major change will get people talking that much more....though it seems like a short-sighted game-plan, imo.  Ultimately, they'd learn the hard way that it's unlikely to pay off when you change a character so much that people don't even recognize them anymore....like getting Ludacris to play Samus in a Metroid movie...some of those casting decisions are non-stop comedy, imo.

[Darc_Requiem]

12 minutes ago, HD-Man said:

Well, Xavier and Magneto loosely based on MLK and Malcom X, them being turned black wouldn't be considered woke in my book, actually quite on brand 🤣

But they aren't red heads though, not sure it's allowed. Now Lex Luthor is a natural red head and we know how DC rolls. 👀

[Maxx]

6 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

But they aren't red heads though, not sure it's allowed. Now Lex Luthor is a natural red head and we know how DC rolls. 👀

Don't act like Dominican lex from dcau wasn't the best version

[Darc_Requiem]

Just now, Maxx said:

Don't act like Dominican lex from dcau wasn't the best version

Bruh, I'm glad I have to mask up at work....cause I'm dying of laughter over here 🤣

[Darc_Requiem]

10 hours ago, Maxx said:

Then more people need to support new created black characters. I've watched so many original black characters get created and not supported. For fucks sake people cry about storm not getting a solo series.. When she's had a few and never does well. She only does well when she's leading a team. 

 

A big reason they do race swapping is because it'll have a have a built in fanbase so it's easier to build upon. It may feel like a cop out but if people keep complaining and don't actually support new properties what do you want a company to do? I've seen new ips from marvel and DC not get supported and then the internet cries about race swapping. 

Race swapping a character is short sighted, it instantly costs you part of your audience. You have to hope whatever you gain offsets the loss. Not everyone person that is turned off, despite what the media tries to push, is some racist/sexist/homophobe. Taking an existing minority character doesn't give you that instant down side. The penalty for failure is less. The reward for success is greater. It may or may not work, but it doesn't risk damaging to an existing IP.

 

The support argument is a good one. It something I bring up when when it comes women's sports not being supported by women. That said, you have characters like the Carol Danvers that continually fall flat but keep getting pushed. So the lack of taking a chance on an existing minority/female/lgbt characters is bit disingenuous. I often bring up Blade. A character that was extremely minor and unknown that was given a shot and is now bigger character overall because it. The downside if Blade had failed wouldn't have been as near as big as swapping an existing major character and fracturing a fan base. Once a fanbase gets splintered, it is very hard to put it back together again.

 

Hell you can look at the MCU to lesser degree. Since Marvel didn't have the rights to their most popular characters, they put a lot of effort into characters that were viewed as second tier with great success. Fox, Universal, and Sony had the rights to their most well known characters, yet they made film studio juggernaut anyway. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Darc_Requiem

[Maxx]

27 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Race swapping a character is short sighted, it instantly costs you part of your audience. You have to hope whatever you gain offsets the loss. Not everyone person that is turned off, despite what the media tries to push, is some racist/sexist/homophobe. Taking an existing minority character doesn't give you that instant down side. The penalty for failure is less. The reward for success is greater. It may or may not work, but it doesn't risk damaging to an existing IP.

 

The support argument is a good one. It something I bring up when when it comes women's sports not being supported by women. That said, you have characters like the Carol Danvers that continually fall flat but keep getting pushed. So the lack of taking a chance on an existing minority/female/lgbt characters is bit disingenuous. I often bring up Blade. A character that was extremely minor and unknown that was given a shot and is now bigger character overall because it. The downside if Blade had failed wouldn't have been as near as big as swapping an existing major character and fracturing a fan base. Once a fanbase gets splintered, it is very hard to put it back together again.

 

Hell you can look at the MCU to lesser degree. Since Marvel didn't have the rights to their most popular characters, they put a lot of effort into characters that were viewed as second tier with great success. Fox, Universal, and Sony had the rights to their most well known characters, yet they made film studio juggernaut anyway. 

Carol is extremely popular. Ever since her modern reboot. Where the character fell flat was civil war 2 but the movie helped pick her back up.  She is 1000% getting support from fans

[Darc_Requiem]

5 minutes ago, Maxx said:

Carol is extremely popular. Ever since her modern reboot. Where the character fell flat was civil war 2 but the movie helped pick her back up.  She is 1000% getting support from fans

They keep relaunching her books because they don't sell. She has had 7 or 8 relaunches in the last 15 years.

[Maxx]

24 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

They keep relaunching her books because they don't sell. She has had 7 or 8 relaunches in the last 15 years.

Relaunches don't indicate poor sales and alot can depend on who's writing at the time and the story they tell. Alot of relaunches are cause a new writer takes over. Where did you see she had poor sales? 

[Darc_Requiem]

14 minutes ago, Maxx said:

Relaunches don't indicate poor sales and alot can depend on who's writing at the time and the story they tell. Alot of relaunches are cause a new writer takes over. Where did you see she had poor sales? 

https://www.comichron.com/index.php

 

Lists sales numbers by month.  I was wrong, I looked it up. She was Ms. Marvel from 2006 to 2012. So if you want to count Ms. Marvel it's 8 runs in 14 years. If you take her out it's 7 runs in the last 9 years. Kelly Sue DeConnick had the three runs after Bryan Reeds Ms. Marvel run 2012 to 2015. She two launches in 2016. The first by Tara Butters and the second by Margaret Stohl which launched December 2016. Margaret Stohl had another launch in 2018, and the current run from Kelly Thompson started in 2019. I have to get to bed, but this is the current run. Which is the strongest of the Captain Marvel runs from what I can tell and seems top back up your point. Unfortunately there is no tracking past March 2020. I'm not going to break out each month. Ms. Marvel averaged 35k a month. The DeConnick runs came in at 23k, 23k, and 30k.  Tara Butters 27k, Margaret Stohl 23k, The post movies runs, Margaret Stohl 38k and Thompson 40k actually beat out the last Ms. Marvel run. Thompson seems to 50ish to 60ish range each month on average. Which seem solid, I'll have to defer to your wisdom one that. She also has high points of 2nd, 15th, and 28th.

 

2019

• Issue 1 - 2nd
• Issue 2 - 39th 
• Issue 3 - 58th 
• Issue 4 - 67th 
• Issue 5 - 79th 
• Issue 6 - 59th 
• Issue 7 - 69th 
• Issue 8 - 50th 
• Issue 9 - 72th 
• Issue 10 - 64th 
• Issue 11 -15th 
• Issue 12 -48th 

2020

• Issue 14 (WTF happened to 13) - 55th 
• Issue 15 - 52nd
• Issue 16 - 28th

[Maxx]

59 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

https://www.comichron.com/index.php

 

Lists sales numbers by month.  I was wrong, I looked it up. She was Ms. Marvel from 2006 to 2012. So if you want to count Ms. Marvel it's 8 runs in 14 years. If you take her out it's 7 runs in the last 9 years. Kelly Sue DeConnick had the three runs after Bryan Reeds Ms. Marvel run 2012 to 2015. She two launches in 2016. The first by Tara Butters and the second by Margaret Stohl which launched December 2016. Margaret Stohl had another launch in 2018, and the current run from Kelly Thompson started in 2019. I have to get to bed, but this is the current run. Which is the strongest of the Captain Marvel runs from what I can tell and seems top back up your point. Unfortunately there is no tracking past March 2020. I'm not going to break out each month. Ms. Marvel averaged 35k a month. The DeConnick runs came in at 23k, 23k, and 30k.  Tara Butters 27k, Margaret Stohl 23k, The post movies runs, Margaret Stohl 38k and Thompson 40k actually beat out the last Ms. Marvel run. Thompson seems to 50ish to 60ish range each month on average. Which seem solid, I'll have to defer to your wisdom one that. She also has high points of 2nd, 15th, and 28th.

 

2019

• Issue 1 - 2nd
• Issue 2 - 39th 
• Issue 3 - 58th 
• Issue 4 - 67th 
• Issue 5 - 79th 
• Issue 6 - 59th 
• Issue 7 - 69th 
• Issue 8 - 50th 
• Issue 9 - 72th 
• Issue 10 - 64th 
• Issue 11 -15th 
• Issue 12 -48th 

2020

• Issue 14 (WTF happened to 13) - 55th 
• Issue 15 - 52nd
• Issue 16 - 28th

Those aren't bad numbers. Like I said the captain marvel run of her has had a huge fanbase... Then you got the movie buff. 

 

Looking at how you broke it down these aren't number issues to me they're story things. Whatever story someone was trying to tell ran the course. The only one that may be due to numbers is that 2016 run because of two writers within the year but also may be due to a writers responsibilities changing. 

 

Alot of times a writer straight up bails and that had nothing to do with numbers. But numbers may suffer because of it and a new writer may catch that residual shit because they jumped on. 

[Hawkingbird]

10 hours ago, Maxx said:

Carol is extremely popular. Ever since her modern reboot. Where the character fell flat was civil war 2 but the movie helped pick her back up.  She is 1000% getting support from fans

Extremely popular to who? Marvel is desperately trying to make her popular but nothing they've done as stuck. Tons of relaunches, the character doesn't have a consistent supporting cast or status quo. I look at the numbers that Darc posted and popularity doesn't jump at me at all

[Maxx]

1 minute ago, Hawkingbird said:

Extremely popular to who? Marvel is desperately trying to make her popular but nothing they've done as stuck. Tons of relaunches, the character doesn't have a consistent supporting cast or status quo. I look at the numbers that Darc posted and popularity doesn't jump at me at all

I'm probably the only person here who apparently Goes to actual cons. I see the cosplayers alot. I see the support online. 30k is a decent number... Am I saying she's doing top Spiderman esque numbers nah.. But she is Def not un-popular which seems the point he was making. At no point can you say she's an unpopular character

[Hawkingbird]

4 minutes ago, Maxx said:

I'm probably the only person here who apparently Goes to actual cons. I see the cosplayers alot. I see the support online. 30k is a decent number... Am I saying she's doing top Spiderman esque numbers nah.. But she is Def not un-popular which seems the point he was making. At no point can you say she's an unpopular character

She doesn't stay in 30K. That would be good if that's where her numbers stabilize but that's usually not the case. Once she reaches cancellation numbers they go for the relaunch. That's never a good sign. 

 

 

[Maxx]

2 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

She doesn't stay in 30K. That would be good if that's where her numbers stabilize but that's usually not the case. Once she reaches cancellation numbers they go for the relaunch. That's never a good sign. 

 

 

Those numbers don't tell the whole story because of events going on In marvel. Like you read relaunches and think ohh bad comic.. And don't consider things like all different all new and all different. Numbers don't always tell the whole story 

[TheInfernoman]

22 hours ago, Maxx said:

It's fear of being replaced that these dudes get so riles up. They fear minorities and lgbtq people will replace them when all they've asked for is more representation. The fact these shows can have a new fanbase who support them shows the shows have a voice for them when in the past they haven't. 

 

The fear mongering of being replaced has always been unfounded from the idea Mexicans were gonna replace the whit epopulation to illegal immigration taking over(my fave is when they blamed them for corona outbreaks) to all black people rob and steal its all aspects of unfounded fear of being replaced. 

 

When in reality the only thing any minority has ever asked for is to be represented and allowed a seat at the table. 

I don't ask for a seat at the table, over the years I learned I don't need the "white" table's approval, I can just make my own table and invite everyone to it. will it take longer? probably but good things take time. 😉

 

and yes ya'll ARE getting replaced. BROWN WILL REPLACE BLACK AND WHITE! IT IS THE INEVITABLE! MUAHAHAHAHAH! 🙃

[Hawkingbird]

32 minutes ago, Maxx said:

Those numbers don't tell the whole story because of events going on In marvel. Like you read relaunches and think ohh bad comic.. And don't consider things like all different all new and all different. Numbers don't always tell the whole story 

Not every reboot coincided with a company wide relaunch. Her book was relaunched after Civil War 2 and that event didn't being about company wide changes. Those relaunches just hurt the character as each one does less numbers than the previous. 

 

What those numbers do tell is how successful the character is in the market. The numbers say she's not catching on despite the Roman Reigns level push.

[Maxx]

30 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

Not every reboot coincided with a company wide relaunch. Her book was relaunched after Civil War 2 and that event didn't being about company wide changes. Those relaunches just hurt the character as each one does less numbers than the previous. 

 

What those numbers do tell is how successful the character is in the market. The numbers say she's not catching on despite the Roman Reigns level push.

I admitted earlier civil war 2 fucked her character up. It went against everything they built for her and hurt her for a while til the movie 

[Darc_Requiem]

1 hour ago, Hawkingbird said:

Not every reboot coincided with a company wide relaunch. Her book was relaunched after Civil War 2 and that event didn't being about company wide changes. Those relaunches just hurt the character as each one does less numbers than the previous. 

 

What those numbers do tell is how successful the character is in the market. The numbers say she's not catching on despite the Roman Reigns level push.

@MaxxHawkingbird is right about her relaunches. Outside of the recent one to take advantage of her movie, they weren't because of brand wide launches. In fact part of the season some of her previous runs last as long as they did i they tied an event into her current run. She'd get a couple issue sales boost before the her sales started declining again.  Her current in the only one that isn't continually decreasing in sales. Her baseline typically falls 60+ % percent from her debut. I thought 35% is what is considered good but again, I've been out of the comic game for a while. So that colors my perception of what strong sales are. Is the 50 to 60ish monthly sales range considered popular? Not being a smart ass it's an honest question.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Darc_Requiem

[RSG3]

9 hours ago, Maxx said:

I'm probably the only person here who apparently Goes to actual cons. 

You are deffinitly the only one who thinks it's an accurate representation of the market. 

[Maxx]

26 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

You are deffinitly the only one who thinks it's an accurate representation of the market. 

It's a piece of the puzzle not the whole story. It helps to show its a popular character. People don't cosplay characters in bunches for unpopular characters. Again not the whole story

[RSG3]

Yea but almost every time you argue with someone about this you fall back on "I go to Cons." Like so what? I've been to lots of cons I wouldn t really argue they accurately reflect much other then fanbases exist and will congregate in one spot. 

 

It's like going to Evo and saying "Yea Fighting games are super popular" when they really aren't you're just in a hot spot for them at the moment. 

 

Honestly I find your regular attendance to Cons as a big bias block for you in being able to see the bigger picture. You always call back on cons when they aren't terribly representative of much in the long run imo. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by RSG3

[Maxx]

1 hour ago, RSG3 said:

Yea but almost every time you argue with someone about this you fall back on "I go to Cons." Like so what? I've been to lots of cons I wouldn t really argue they accurately reflect much other then fanbases exist and will congregate in one spot. 

 

It's like going to Evo and saying "Yea Fighting games are super popular" when they really aren't you're just in a hot spot for them at the moment. 

 

Honestly I find your regular attendance to Cons as a big bias block for you in being able to see the bigger picture. You always call back on cons when they aren't terribly representative of much in the long run imo. 

I use cons for arguments in what sense? Can you give an example other than this? The only thing I can think of is something anime related which my buisness was running balls deep in for a decade. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Maxx

[RSG3]

3 hours ago, Maxx said:

I use cons for arguments in what sense? Can you give an example other than this? The only thing I can think of is something anime related which my buisness was running balls deep in for a decade. 

I think we are thinking of the same example. 

[Darc_Requiem]

I had similar thoughts. It's kind of like how the hardcore FGC, in general, can't stand single player content. They think their view that is worthless reflects the general public when it's in the minority. NRS games sales are through the roof and they can't maintain a tournament scene for shit. They pull eight digit sales numbers because casuals are buying their games for story  mode, towers, etc.

[Wellman]

On 10/28/2021 at 12:34 AM, Darc_Requiem said:

They keep relaunching her books because they don't sell. She has had 7 or 8 relaunches in the last 15 years.

And this is mostly damning about the comic book industry as whole, but those are actually expected ranges for relaunching books. Marvel in particular has relaunched books literally a year in not because of sales but either creator changes or editorial mandated character changes, only top titles and big creators are often exempt from the relaunch turnstile that is the modern Big 2 super hero books.

 

I actually remember one or two of Captain Marvel's relaunches, one they got a big name creator who was co writing but out within a year and the other it was part of the editorial shift where they retconned her from being human that got her powers from an accident with the original Mar-Vell to being half Kree from the jump.

[TheInfernoman]

14 hours ago, Maxx said:

 People don't cosplay characters in bunches for unpopular characters. Again not the whole story

You need define unpopular Bruv! I cosplayed Travia Touchdown, Scar from full metal alchemist, Iori and many others and you can argue some of them are "unpopular" but are cosplayed in bunches. I will agree it's not the whole story but it's you that is missing parts other in this thread have stated. 

 

Sorry but imma say you're wrong on your assessment for this argument. 

[Maxx]

11 hours ago, RSG3 said:

I think we are thinking of the same example. 

If so then I use the fact I work as conventions to back up what I'm saying. Alot of posts on here are from a very online perspective whether it's Twitter or maybe some friends posts. When I offer a different perspective from cons it's a on the ground kinda way. Whether I hear voice actors talking, see for myself things that may differ... Ie. You aren't gonna see a bunch of kids cosplay non popular characters. They are more often than not gonna do what is popular. 

 

I don't feel it's a bias for me to say I see something different. Especially when alot of the things people say are from a very hearsay perspective of Twitter. I don't know why me talking cons is a bias view but not anyone else's who don't have back up in any sense. At least @Darc_Requiemposted numbers for his views but let's be real most of the captain marvel hate on this page is super fuckin biased because alot of guys still havent gotten over what brie said years ago. 

[DangerousJ]

Because NO ONE demanded it...

 

 

[Sonichuman]

21 minutes ago, DangerousJ said:

Because NO ONE demanded it...

 

 

 

Bill Murray was a far better choice in voice for that character and the movie was still Garbage from what I understand. 

[Hecatom]

1 hour ago, Sonichuman said:

 

Bill Murray was a far better choice in voice for that character and the movie was still Garbage from what I understand. 

 

I am gonna give him the benefit of the doubt, since while is true, Bill Murray was a better cast, he was tied to a terrible set of movies that were trying to marry an animated cat with real life actors in a way that was just ugh...

[Wellman]

Well I guess we just need to wait for the Mario Garfield fusions fan art. The heavens and Nintendo were prepping us all these years for it and now the time has come.

[Hecatom]

5 hours ago, Wellman said:

Well I guess we just need to wait for the Mario Garfield fusions fan art. The heavens and Nintendo were prepping us all these years for it and now the time has come.

 

 

 

 

[Wellman]

Odie as Luigi is perfection.

[Hawkingbird]

Anyone watch Arcane? I know jack shit about the game's lore but the first arc is good origin story. 

[Dragonfave723]

 

[Darc_Requiem]

The calendar is not saying April 1st.....that's real 😮

[BornWinner]

It’s going to be weird seeing a new show that seems to emulate the 90s cartoon and Cyclops won’t have that same voice actor. May Norm Spencer Rest In Peace.

[HD-Man]

12 minutes ago, Dragonfave723 said:

 

Oh shit, I heard rumors but they're actually doing it. My God, I'm hype 

 

Is it a continuation of xmen 92?

Edited November 12, 2021 by HD-Man

[RSG3]

Better be as low budget and goofy looking as the OG. 

[Maxx]

31 minutes ago, BornWinner said:

It’s going to be weird seeing a new show that seems to emulate the 90s cartoon and Cyclops won’t have that same voice actor. May Norm Spencer Rest In Peace.

Marvel shitposting group said a bunch of the og cast died last yr

[HD-Man]

I hope Cathol Dodd is still alive, he's still the definitive Wolverine in my book, no disrespect to Steve Blum

[DangerousJ]

New Cyclops,Magneto,and Sabertooth actors since the old ones have passed. 

 

I'm actually surprised they aren't just doing a new X-Men show in general given the seemingly new status quo in the comics. 

 

Nice that it will debut on the 60th anniversary of the Xmens first comics appearance.

[Dragonfave723]

 

[HD-Man]

They'll probably get Tom what his name to voice Magneto again, he voiced him in MvC3 (also voices SpongeBob too) or maybe even Chris Judge again from X-men Evolution. I didn't know Sabretooth's VA died too tho 😭

 

Honestly they could use sound alikes too, the new Chucky in the Rugrats reboot is almost indistinguishable, so it's doable 

Edited November 12, 2021 by HD-Man

[Dragonfave723]

21 minutes ago, HD-Man said:

I hope Cathol Dodd is still alive, he's still the definitive Wolverine in my book, no disrespect to Steve Blum

You're in luck: https://www.thewrap.com/x-men-97-1990s-x-men-animated-series-2023/

 

Currently called “X-Men ’97,” the revival will pick up where the classic show left off, with several cast members from “X-Men: The Animated Series” are returning; some will reprise their original roles and others will step into entirely new roles.

 

Returning cast members include: Cal Dodd, Lenore Zann, George Buza, Adrian Hough, Christopher Britton, Catherine Disher, Chris Potter, Alison Sealy-Smith, Alyson Court.

[DangerousJ]

OG Wolverine,Rogue,Beast, Nightcrawler, Sinister, Jean, Gambit, Storm, and Jubilee. 

 

As a Gambit fan, I'm glad they got his first actor. 

 My reaction: 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by DangerousJ

[HD-Man]

On second thought, we need aggressively Australian Wolverine from Pride of the X-men for the lulz 🤣

[Maxx]

Nothing will be funnier than the flash series that had an actual Canadian wolverine who had to run between teams for the various crossover events.