misterBee

I posted a million words talking about how the portrayal of Chinese stuff in that game seems fake/forced, and all you can do is talk about how well it fits with the character of Mr. Negative. I don't care how well it fits with Mr. Negative. I'm talking about the game's representation of Chinese culture. LOL we might as well just call this whole conversation "YagamiFire literally cannot fathom why a Chinese person might not see things the same way he does in regards to Chinese shit".

I said from the first post that it's obviously fiction. Does nuance not exist to you? Is it so wild that SOME THINGS they want to portray realistically, while others they don't? It's not all or nothing. If Spider-man had a really racist depiction of black people you'd be ok with it just because it's fiction? According to you you shouldn't take anything seriously just because it's in a fictional work? My opinion is that I think the Chinese stuff in Spider-man comes across as super awkward, clumsy, and seems like it was written to emphasize shit as being 'Asian' without it feeling authentic. I'm saying I personally find it irksome. If the designer at Insomniac (who is also Asian) doesn't think that, it's fine. What ISN'T fine is how your whole thought process is "I'm cool with it, so anyone who disagrees basically doesn't know what they're talking about". I'm not saying you should care about everyone on Earth, but that kinda seems like you just don't give a fuck about any opinion but your own, and basically just ignore the opinions of everyone you don't agree with. Just because someone is a certain gender/race it certainly doesn't make them the ultimate authority on certain issues, but wouldn't you agree it at least give their opinion a bit more weight? If we're talking women's issues wouldn't a woman's opinion matter at least slightly more?

If a work is trying to portray something as REALISTIC, it should be at least kind of realistic. Castlevania doesn't pretend to be realistic in the slightest so idk what bearing that has on things. I don't care about how accurate Sengoku Basara X is, but I DO care about how accurate something like Ghost of Tsushima is. Spider-man is playing the Chinese thing straight, which is why their portrayal is so irksome. Yes it's obvious the colors are black and white because of Mr. Negative. Colors are also a REALLY important part of Chinese opera. The colors have actual meanings and implications. To call something Chinese opera and then straight up ignore the colors while also DRASTICALLY changing the shape of the masks until they look like something completely different defeats the whole purpose of calling them opera masks in the first place. Why call them opera? They could have just been masks. That's what I don't get. Your idea of how 'opera' the masks are differs from mine. What elements in the design you think are important differ from what I think is important. I don't know what ethnicity you are, but as a Chinese person the designs seems weird. It's fine if you don't agree, but I don't see why you feel the right to tell me how I should feel about it. To go back to the Native American example, some people might say "As long as headdresses have feathers! It's all good!" To someone who is actually from the relevant cultures, that might simply not be good enough. If you don't have any background or knowledge in something it's easy to dismiss. If you know or care about something it's a lot less easy to overlook it. As you mentioned before, not everyone is the same. Some people care about things more than others. Different people can take more offense than others, even if they are from separate cultures. What's alarming to me is that just because you don't agree with someone they don't have a right to be offended. If Thunder was designed with good intentions but some people don't like that, that's their right. Why does anyone get to decide what people are and aren't ok with? Just because something wasn't meant to be offensive/was done from a good place doesn't mean you get to blanket dismiss anyone who has any problem with it, big or small. One day you'll post something YOU care about, and I hope you don't encounter a bunch of people who say shit like "well I don't put a lot of stock into how you feel about xyz. It's OBVIOUSLY fine! Just be okay with it!" It's honestly kind of insulting. What if you post in here about some SF stuff you are unhappy with and I wait for you to finish posting before calmly saying "Yeah, who cares about your opinion? I think it fits SF perfectly!" Are there people on the internet who overreact to every little thing? Definitely. But there are also people who don't give a fuck about anyone, and just dismiss anything they disagree with as being silly/unimportant/not relevant. You are dangerously close to the latter when you just arbitrarily decide other people don't have the right to dislike something, simply because YOU are cool with it. And when it's stuff like a race/religion that you are not part of, why do you think your opinion matters more than theirs? PS - The art director from Insomniac is Asian. Maybe she's cool with the masks and think they look great. I obviously don't. Either way that's neither here nor there because we are two different people with two different opinions.

@Shakunetsu@CESTUS III I don't have time to really get to the bottom of this, so just...tolerate each other and keep things peaceful, for the sake of everyone else. Thanks.

We can agree to disagree on this. Buffalo Bill's Wild West show was "cool Indian stuff" for people who didn't know what was going on, but I don't think many Native Americans were happy with its skewed/incorrect representation of their people. If you don't know and you like something, that's fine -- but that doesn't necessarily excuse the creator for either not doing their homework or straight up misrepresenting people. I may not be able to claim all of Chinese culture for my own, but on the flipside I doubt I'm the only Chinese person who thought that shit was whack as hell. Honestly if the game didn't go out of your way to tell you they were Chinese opera masks, I wouldn't have cared. But they really work hard to point it out, and the blatant inaccuracy can really take you out of it. Despite how fantastical and weird Marvel's world is, it IS supposed to be our modern world. China and Chinese people do exist in Spider-man, it's supposed to be reflecting our world in a realistic way (at least in this particular instance). If this is a person's first exposure to Chinese culture, it would be nice if it was a bit more accurate. These are what real masks look like (and what the game claims to be using): And this is what the game shows: It's not even close. I understand there is artistic license and people might not lose sleep over it, but it is at least a little disrespectful. Are real Chinese opera masks dorky looking? Definitely. But they could have just kept their mouths shut, used their cool mask designs, and not called them something that they are not. Everybody would win. (to be fair to Insomniac these designs are closer to ones used in the comics, but I don't know if they call them opera masks in the comics) It's a silly example but if you had an in-game Catholic Church where they replaced Jesus on the cross with Moses on a Hindu Swastika and had characters refer to it as normal Christian decor I'm sure there would be at least some people who would think it's hella weird. Ghosts of Tsushima did it best I think -- there are huge historical inaccuracies but they are close enough in spirit and show some real research and care put in. Anyway thanks for chatting. 🙂

He's having a battle with CESTUS in the story thread but he accidentally posted in here.

I agreed with your post until this. Why do you think that? I'm not saying you should never introduce cultural elements. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying you should do it in a way that isn't lazy, and I think new SF char designs do that well. If you want to have a cowboy, sure. If you want to have a samurai, great! Just don't make them caricatures. And I'd like to think in 2022 the only thought process shouldn't be 'hur hur they're from another country'. Surely there's more to it than that? Hakan is an excellent point to bring up. They made Oil Wrestling a joke 'HAHA HE'S FROM TURKEY AND THEY'RE SO WILD OVER THERE'. All I'm saying is I don't need more of that -- but when nationality is the only thing you lean on that's exactly what happens. You seem to act like I'm attacking the things you like, but that' s not it at all. I like SF just as much as you and want it to evolve and stay relevant. USA Soldier-man Guile and JP Karate-man Ryu were fine in the 90s and will always have a soft-spot in my heart but if they were released in 2022 I'd call them lazy and lame.

I take no offense at what you posted about me, but I think you are largely confusing me with random people who freak out on Twitter. If anything it seems like YOU have a chip on your shoulder from arguing with other people online about these things or something. 1) I personally don't care if my culture or heritage are represented in media. If all the Marvel heroes are white that's irrelevant to me. I don't freak out about that like some people do. 2) I personally don't care about cultural appropriation. MJ's dress in the movies didn't mean anything to me. So right off the bat idk why you even brought those two things up. What I DO care about is if you're going to represent my culture, you might as well do it properly. There's a big difference between portraying a Chinese character and portraying a caricature that appeals to what non-Chinese people think a Chinese person is. It's the difference between Martin Li (whose portrayal I thought was overall very good) vs Fu Manchu. I call Martin Li 'a regular dude' because when he's not being a super villain that's exactly how he comes across. He doesn't speak with a lame accent, he doesn't waltz around wearing traditional Chinese clothing, he is literally just a normal dude. You don't look at him on your screen and think "WOW HE'S SO CHINESE!!!!", which in the not-so-distant past is how Asian chars have been portrayed. In that way he's an example of a lot of progress in terms of portrayals in media. When he's Mr. Negative it's much the same. 0 issues. But why is all the other stuff around him so corny and silly? The safe, the story book, the way the masks are hilariously incorrect -- it's pretty embarrassing. I'm sure the developers meant well but it comes across as super ham-fisted. Whereas their portrayal of the character is great, all the 'set dressing' around him in their attempts to show you how Asian he is fall really flat. And why do they need all that anyway? You can tell he's Asian just by looking at him. Do you really need all these set pieces in case someone missed the memo? Why not make sure every Irish character has bottles of Guiness all over their apartment or ensure every French guy has baguettes everywhere? I thought Mr. Negative was great. I just didn't care for all the dumb stuff around him that is placed there just to show how exotic and Asian he is.

I guess what I'm asking is why having a 'kung fu star name' enriches the character. Jamie is wearing the stereotypical shit, he's got the gourd, he's got the drunken style, he has the braid -- I mean at that point what does adding a Chinese-sounding name add to it? If anything the fact that his name is the one thing that ISN'T super Chinese is more interesting, especially when compared to everything else about him. I agree with all your points about SF char design -- it has always been stereotypes and it's one of the things I've always thought was the lamest about it. I really like how (most of) the newer characters are starting to move away from the 1980s basic-ass ethnic stereotypes. Yes, SF is definitely about making 'exotic' chars, and when it comes to legacy chars (Gief, etc.) it's obvious why you can't change who they are anymore. I 100% agree with your analysis of them. My main point is that in 2022, different nationalities aren't 'exotic'. It's not the 80s/90s anymore. Someone being from Asia or Africa or Europe isn't 'wild'. Being from another country or race isn't 'weird' or 'exciting'. It's just life. The quicker we stop treating different races/skin colors/countries as exciting or wild the better. If SF chars want to get weird that's great, and I hope they keep pushing things. I'm just tired of nationality being used as a crutch for char design.

I 100% that game. Let's not forget Norman Osborn, the OG Spider-man jekyll and hyde, didn't have random yin yang shit. The reason that yin yang safe is in there is because that game is obsessed with telling you how Chinese Martin Li is. He has a crew that speaks Mandarin! Check out those Chinese opera masks they all wear (which by the way, look nothing like Chinese opera masks -- why?)! Peep this 'Chinese' story book from his youth that 1000% reads like a random western story book we sprayed Asian-looking art over! Yes he's Mr. Negative, but everything about the Asian symbolism there was ham-fisted as hell. It's been a few years, so correct me if I'm wrong but don't you also find a hidden safe/room in Osborn's apt in that game? Where was the SECRET DUALITY OF MAN symbolism in that safe? Why was that one just a normal-ass high tech lock like you'd expect? Everything about that arc in Spider-man (a game which I really enjoyed btw) just reeked of a team that REALLY REALLY wanted to use a Chinese char (which is great), but did it in the most ham-fisted western-POV way ever. It was pretty cringey if you're actually Chinese.

Idk guys...why does being Chinese suddenly mean a character needs to have a first and last name to sound 'right'? We have characters in SF named Ed and Cody. Names don't really get simpler than that. It's weird that people are cool with them, but if those characters were Chinese those simple/common names would suddenly be strange? Having a character showing a full name JUST because they're Chinese is kinda odd, especially when every other character in the game only displays their given name. I think some people still have the mindset that Asians are somehow exotic, when of course we're just like everyone else. This was one of the things that annoyed me the most about Spider-man on PS4. The Chinese villain was just a normal dude, but for some reason he has a super weird Yin-Yang safe in his office. Why? If he was white or black it would have been a normal safe. Westerners fetishize and get weird about Asians in a way they don't about other races/people.

People in HK have both English and Chinese names. The Chinese ones are given at birth, and the English ones are sometimes picked by the kids themselves when they are in school. Source: Lived in Hong Kong for years. I know several people whose English name is 'Bob' because they wanted something easy to spell. There's nothing exotic about English names on Chinese people. Jamie isn't even a weird name. People thinking a Chinese person needs a Chinese sounding name is a bit ridiculous tbh. That's like saying every Mexican character needs to be named Pedro or something. It's 2022. P.S. - Nobody thought it was weird Elena doesn't have some tribal-sounding name. Why do Chinese chars need something 'exotic'? 🤔

Wait -- you play fighting games against actual people? 🤔

I am hype for this:

@weneedhimwtf dude. I don't need to be reading about that shit in here.

Cammy's new outfit is cooler than her old one.

It's definitely a modern take on it. Trust me, that's not what dresses from historical dramas look like LOL. No, those are fake poor people clothes. The expensive kind that rich people buy when they want to look 'casual'.

As an actual Chinese person, I'll tell you classic Chun is the most stereotypical/bland/boring char design out there. It's the MOST boring one. The new one is much more modern and less cartoonish. Tbh most SF 'classic' designs have always been bland. The only reason they've stuck around this long is legacy. It's not because they were tight. They've always been low-effort national stereotypes.

There are other leaked images besides that one. EDIT: Nvm I saw you posted the others already.

They've gone full anime. This is some Blazblue shit. Good luck explaining this to any casual. Parries though. 🤤

This thread is for SFV GAME DISCUSSION ONLY.

There has always been a FG GD thread. I have no idea why you people don't want to use it:

Discuss.

I know this is hard for people but this forum has some very clear rules: 1) No politics 2) No religion Please follow these rules and let me enjoy my Memorial Day weekend. 😔 Many would argue being trans is being MORE true to oneself.

@zatalcon3This here is a little clubhouse for (mostly) old FGC people. If you want to report hard-hitting truths go find a job at a newspaper. Maybe start a cable-only fringe news channel. If you antagonize/insult enough people enough times I'll remove you from the site. That's all it is. Doesn't get any simpler than that. I don't like problems, and people who are problems get removed.