The Street Fighter VI Story Thread: Shadaloo Died so Luke Could Live!

[Chun-Li_Forever]

 

[Tatsuroko]

26 minutes ago, Daemos said:

But how much of this was fans projecting onto Capcom what they want from Necalli because of his aesthetic? At no point did Capcom say that Necalli was meant to be the boss of SF5 or that he was meant to be some top dog villain.

Thing is, Nakayama himself admitted he was not a perfect villain. Clearly they had more plans, but the character didn't focus-test well and they were forced to scale back the ambitions (or they were just lazy to make a proper boss battle, rather than simply have Bison with an activated V-Trigger).

It's their job to keep track of their fanbase's imagination, especially now when the management appears to be trying to be as transparent with their plans as possible.
 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Tatsuroko

[Daemos]

10 minutes ago, Tatsuroko said:

Thing is, Nakayama himself admitted he was not a perfect villain. Clearly they had more plans, but the character didn't focus-test well and they were forced to scale back the ambitions (or they were just lazy to make a proper boss battle, rather than just have Bison with an activated V-Trigger).

He was the outlying villain, meaning he was not the central villain.

 

I don't see how they "clearly" had more more plans but the character didn't "focus test well". Where are you getting this information as it isn't in that link you mentioned.

[Tatsuroko]

4 minutes ago, Daemos said:

He was the outlying villain, meaning he was not the central villain.

Clearly he meant Nec turned out to be the outlying villain in the final product. Doesn't necessarily imply he was meant to be that way all along, and the "not perfect" bit indicates that.

[Darc_Requiem]

10 hours ago, YagamiFire said:

JP is proving himself to be a straight-up pimp. Dude has swagger & style in spades.

Of course, you know JP stands for Just Pimpin right? 😉

[bakfromon]

Necalli was literally just a place holder for Akuma. His story relevance was literally only for Ryu to be pushed beyond SnH, discover Fist of Wind and MnK, and to be beaten by Ryu. That should have been something Akuma represents and it makes more sense from the overall narrative. The only problem is that Akuma is basically Capcom's cash cow and they love to milk the fans for his presence in the game. So instead of just including Akuma in the main cast or first set of DLC they held him off and introduced Necalli to take his place. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by bakfromon

[ShockDingo]

Necalli frustrates me so much, I wanted more, but now, I'm just hoping for a quiet retcon or him never really being referenced again.

[Darc_Requiem]

4 hours ago, Daemos said:

But how much of this was fans projecting onto Capcom what they want from Necalli because of his aesthetic?

Necalli literally has the five, V, from the SFV logo on his face. The intro cinematic, which only shows the first time you booted the game for some reason, closes out on Necalli before fading to the title screen. Not mention how they initially said Necalli's character was going to be like. The stuttering animalistic Necalli was supposed to fade away in his true, V-Trigger form, in which Necalli was supposed to be a genius. They completely dropped that aspect and left him a blubbering, brain dead, savage. Capcom's handling of Necalli is one their biggest Street Fighter Ls.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Darc_Requiem

[Daemos]

50 minutes ago, bakfromon said:

Necalli was literally just a place holder for Akuma. His story relevance was literally only for Ryu to be pushed beyond SnH, discover Fist of Wind and MnK, and to be beaten by Ryu. That should have been something Akuma represents and it makes more sense from the overall narrative. The only problem is that Akuma is basically Capcom's cash cow and they love to milk the fans for his presence in the game. So instead of just including Akuma in the main cast or first set of DLC they held him off and introduced Necalli to take his place. 

This.

 

They literally took Akuma’s killing intent shtick and applied to another culture/time. What if Akuma was an Aztec/Mayan? You get Necalli.

 

Literally same plot function as well. 
 

I don’t want the point I was making to get lost though. Keep your expectations of JP in check and focus on the facts from Capcom.

[Doctrine_Dark]

JP's win outro already shattered my expectations.

 

Aside from that, I love his design and the way he fights.

 

I couldn't be happier with the character.

[bakfromon]

27 minutes ago, Daemos said:

This.

 

They literally took Akuma’s killing intent shtick and applied to another culture/time. What if Akuma was an Aztec/Mayan? You get Necalli.

 

Literally same plot function as well. 
 

I don’t want the point I was making to get lost though. Keep your expectations of JP in check and focus on the facts from Capcom.

The difference about JP is there's already more substance to his character than Necalli and he's still shrouded in mystery. He has a backstory with main characters like Ken and presumably Bison. Necalli had no backstory with any main characters he just appeared out of nowhere and brought his own story. 

Is JP an evil boss character? It sure seems that way but everything is still a mystery. Even his win quotes so far don't really show any red flags. If anything we know he literally doesn't like to get his hands dirty so his whole evil persona maybe something his character keeps under wraps. Instead he goes for a  calmer more sophisticated approach until he's pushed to his limit and then he's calling people cretins while choke slamming them implanting Psycho Power bombs in their chest and crucifying them on pillars of spikes

[Daemos]

I'm just saying we don't know that he is the proverbial boss of SF6. Capcom have no confirmed anything of the sort, and a lot of people here but especially on twitter have already decided for Capcom what JP is before release (just like Necalli).

 

[Chun-Li_Forever]

 

Manon to Chun-Li: Kung Fu means "hard work" yes? Concealing my effort is part of how I do things.

 

Thoughts: Nothing too big, although I do love the comparison of Manon's ballet to Chun's kung fu. Both not only require a tremendous amount of grace, but all the movements must look effortless to further extenuate that beauty. 

 

[Miðgarðsorm]

 

This is FANTASTIC.

The first Honda winpose references the 手刀 tegatana, the hand gestures that the winner in a sumō match makes when he wins and accepts the prize for the winner from the referee. Usually there are three strokes, but some wrestlers choose to draw the character 心 kokoro "heart, spirit" in the air, as Honda does here. Also, the custom is to perform the gesture with the right hand, but some wrestlers (most notably the first Mongolian yokozuna Asashōryū, so it could be a direct reference to him) do it with the left hand.

The second winpose references the rare and spectacular instance of a 金星 kinboshi ("gold star")¹, that's to say when a maegashira wrestler (aka one of the lower-ranked wrestlers in the upper division) manages to beat a yokozuna: when such an unexpected victory happens, the audience starts to throw their 座布団 zabuton (cushions) all over the place, both to mock the losing champ and to praise the victorious underdog; although it's an action discouraged by the Japanese Sumō Association, the custom of the 座布団の舞 zabuton no mai ("the dance of cushions") persists. We can see Honda had very low health, so his loss was very likely... That's PERFECT.

You can find various examples of a kinboshi on Youtube. Below is the match between the yokozuna Harumafuji and the maegashira Shōhōzan, who unexpectedly wins against the more expert champion and even starts to cry when he realises what he managed to accomplish:

You can hear the announcer shouting 危険ですから座布団投げないでください Kiken desu kara zabuton wo nagenaide kudasai, "Please do not throw cushions around, it's dangerous", to absolutely no effect lol.

Here's Hakuhō (yokozuna) against Okinoumi (maegashira):

 

 

 

 

¹ Normally, in sumō a victory is marked with a ☆ 白星 shiroboshi ("white star") and a loss with a ★ 黒星 kuroboshi ("black star"), so a gold star marks a very special victory.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Miðgarðsorm

[Daemos]

Only in Street Fighter would cushions being thrown on-screen for a winpose would not only make sense, but it would be genius.

[DarthEnderX]

5 hours ago, Tatsuroko said:

JP has me interested. I'm still recovering from how they (mis)treated Necalli and skipped over G's arc in V, but JP does seemingly bring a new flavor to the established SF boss crew.

JP honestly feels like "We're doing G again, but better this time".

3 hours ago, bakfromon said:

The only problem is that Akuma is basically Capcom's cash cow and they love to milk the fans for his presence in the game. So instead of just including Akuma in the main cast or first set of DLC they held him off and introduced Necalli to take his place. 

You think they created an entirely new character, just to be a placeholder for Akuma, instead of just...making Akuma S1 DLC(who were all in story mode)?  Okay then...

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

I'm just saying we don't know that he is the proverbial boss of SF6. 

We know what you're just saying.  It's the same thing you're always saying.  "Bison is the only real SF boss!"

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by DarthEnderX

[Dragonfave723]

Lily to Zangief: I could hear your footsteps coming from two mountains over. You're strong - like a bear! 

[Daemos]

3 hours ago, Tatsuroko said:

Clearly he meant Nec turned out to be the outlying villain in the final product. Doesn't necessarily imply he was meant to be that way all along, and the "not perfect" bit indicates that.

Nothing clear about that. Necalli was always meant to be the outlying villain and that is what happened.  
 

Everything you’re pointing to is just wishful. Capcom admitting that they mishandled Necalli isn’t evidence for him being the main villain. Necalli was a jobber from the beginning. Even in future character stories like Akuma and Boxer he remained a jobber.

 

16 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

We know what you're just saying.  It's the same thing you're always saying.  "Bison is the only real SF boss!"

I’m not saying that. Capcom are.

Even now the stories of many characters in SF6 are only possible through Bison’s legacy. His appearance and his absence both have more impact on characters than any other in SF.

 

G is the only boss character I can respect because at least he tried to stand on his own platform and achievements.
 

All other bosses, including Akuma, Gill and JP tried to establish themselves on the shoulders of Bison. Only Akuma succeeded in becoming something truly great and popular.

 

 

[CESTUS III]

52 minutes ago, Chun-Li_Forever said:

 

Manon to Chun-Li: Kung Fu means "hard work" yes? Concealing my effort is part of how I do things.

 

Thoughts: Nothing too big, although I do love the comparison of Manon's ballet to Chun's kung fu. Both not only require a tremendous amount of grace, but all the movements must look effortless to further extenuate that beauty. 

 

 

I think it's different, it's not the ballet she's talking about

 

Manon uses ballet to conceal her incredible JUDO skill

 

Her whole gimmick is that her JUDO is so stellar that she can use momentum and leverage to throw people so effortlessly to the point she can do it while mask it as a ballet, doing herself dance-like movements rather than orthodox judo ones and even make her her opponent fly/fall taking the positions she prefer

 

 

In Judo the better your technique is (and how superior you are to your opponent) the more your throw will look without any strenght effort, will be fluid and elegant

She bring it to the next level being able to do it so easily that she can conceal it behind a "ballet" appearance

 

One cool thing is in her normal Lv3 she end everything with an actual Judo throw

But when she does the Lv3 ultimate version  she keeps till the end the ballet farce (even singing), showing basically the apex of her technique

 

[Chun-Li_Forever]

@CESTUS IIIOooh, great points. Never thought of it that way before. 🙂

[bakfromon]

2 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

You think they created an entirely new character, just to be a placeholder for Akuma, instead of just...making Akuma S1 DLC(who were all in story mode)?  Okay then...

Yea, even Daemos mentioned that Capcom had stated they wanted to recapture Akuma's essence from his initial appearance in ST and translate that feeling into Necalli. You can't be more of a place holder than that in my eyes.

His purpose in story could literally just be substituted by Akuma and not only would it have worked it would have been better. If Ryu actually had that destined match where he not only beats Akuma but also surpasses SnH and unlocks MnK it would have been what fans of Ryu want to see him accomplish.

Instead we got a place holder for Akuma in Necalli so Ryu can beat him and be free from SnH to do his own thing, Necalli fades away into irrelevance, and Akuma can still be this seemingly unbeatable entity that Ryu still needs to overcome. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by bakfromon

[Tatsuroko]

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

Capcom admitting that they mishandled Necalli isn’t evidence for him being the main villain. Necalli was a jobber from the beginning. Even in future character stories like Akuma and Boxer he remained a jobber.

 

 

So you're saying everyone in the writing team was perfectly fine with Necalli the way he was and they weren't even attempting to figure out any alternative way (in spite of all the interest and excitement around the character, and them capitalizing on it with extra concepts/notes)?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Tatsuroko

[Daemos]

I am saying things are what they tend to be. Necalli is what he is, and I believe Capcom’s final work speaks for itself.  The interviews with Ono speak for themself. What you quoted only reaffirms any sober viewing of SF5’s characters will tell you. 

[bakfromon]

Necalli was such a place holder for Akuma that they even fused the two ideas for one of Akuma's scrapped concepts

This actually would have made sense if Necalli had succeded in eating Akuma instead of getting a bad case of indigestion. He would have taken on his appearance. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by bakfromon

[Daemos]

Necalli failed on so many fronts and it had nothing to do with "he was a jobber instead of main villain". The entire plot of the character revolved around him sleeping for hundreds or thousands of years, then appearing for a short period just to eat everyone strong then go back to sleep. Chances are we will never see him again with a plot like that, but that was already planned from the start.

Akuma is a better Necalli. Garuda is a better Necalli. And if they wanted to emulate Jojo's Pillar Men, Gill did it better first.

If they wanted some bestial illiterate fighter, Blanka did it better first as well.

He's so disposable and unnecessary as a villain that nothing short of a complete overhaul of his lore and design could rescue the design. 

 

Edit-

To clarify, I am a proponent of rescuing Necalli's design and I think there is a niche he can occupy now especially if Kage is out for good. Necalli could be for SF6 what Seth was for SF5.
 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Daemos

[Tatsuroko]

23 minutes ago, Daemos said:

I am saying things are what they tend to be. Necalli is what he is, and I believe Capcom’s final work speaks for itself.  The interviews with Ono speak for themself. What you quoted only reaffirms any sober viewing of SF5’s characters will tell you. 

You're smart, but let's be real, 98% of the community is not. You were able to see through the hype and realize he was but a sub-boss and that's nice, but the rest of the target audience actually expected something meaningful to come out of a character with V's glowing all over his body. And if you're right, then they should've done a better job at "deciphering" it for the masses.

[CESTUS III]

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

Nothing clear about that. Necalli was always meant to be the outlying villain and that is what happened.  
 

Everything you’re pointing to is just wishful. Capcom admitting that they mishandled Necalli isn’t evidence for him being the main villain. Necalli was a jobber from the beginning. Even in future character stories like Akuma and Boxer he remained a jobber.

This just prove my point though

 

Necalli is BY FAR the most ancient and supernatural being compared to Bison, Gill, Akuma or even Oro

When Pillar Men appeared in JoJo they were the fucking big deal, the origin of their evil was so ancient and deep that Jonathan and Dio problems felt surface af

 

Capcom created a SF world Pillar Man that in theory could/should have made other baddies look like kids... and all they could do, has been use him as a jobber

All while using him as some sort of tryhard important Ryu moment, while at same time losing to Rog of all people lmao

 

To make a VERY cheap example

Narrative wise hey could have made up a Ryu-age Akuma disciple or some other normal human that use a type of ki based on murder intent for that, some sort of mini-Akuma test, able to put Ryu in serious danger but no comparable to Akuma himself, would have made sense

 

Instead they made up the most mythological and supernatural being of SF universe, just to have him play side role of shit stepstone in our dear awkward SFV story

Let that sink

 

Necalli writing has been as quintessential example of capcom shitwriting and lack of balls as you can get, all about rely on cashcows at story development/evolution expense

 

Bison sell, spam Bison

But we already said Akuma is much more stronk! At least we can use Akuma!

Nah Akuma stronk must stay invincible for Ryu to milk cashcow, plus Bison sell, spam Bison

But what about NEW villains? Like make SF world grow and move on?

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh, i don't know. I think we should use them to spam some Bison and say that Akuma is very stronk

Genius!

 

Necalli terrible treatment

Seth terrible treatment

G non-existent treatment

 

Only cashcow milk

 

I want to believe in JP, but instinct tells me he's going to be good as SFV no-moons Bison if we are lucky, possibly another great potential concept used as filler arc material

 

Hope to be wrong

 

2 hours ago, Daemos said:

I’m not saying that. Capcom are.

Even now the stories of many characters in SF6 are only possible through Bison’s legacy. His appearance and his absence both have more impact on characters than any other in SF.

 

G is the only boss character I can respect because at least he tried to stand on his own platform and achievements.
 

All other bosses, including Akuma, Gill and JP tried to establish themselves on the shoulders of Bison. Only Akuma succeeded in becoming something truly great and popular.

 

Gill did'nt relied on Bison

 

When SF3 came out in 1997 and for whole SF3 cycle (last time SF actually tried move on from old villains), Bison/Shadaloo was barely mentioned just as something that's no more

 

When current Capcom in SFV written some missing parts and retcon some others, we seen Secret Society had a key role on antagonize Shadaloo, but Gill himself was so worried that thought it was kind of situation that required the whole grand combined power of... his secretary and some new hired part-time guys

 

If SFV did anything good about villains has been preserve Gill and actually show him AFTER Bison's defeat, almost like promising that SF villains world have big stuff to do in the post-Bison era

[Daemos]

1 minute ago, Tatsuroko said:

You're smart, but let's be real, 98% of the community is not. You were able to see through the hype and realize he was but a sub-boss and that's nice, but the rest of the target audience actually expected something meaningful to come out of a character with V's glowing all over his body. And if you're right, then they should've done a better job at "deciphering" it for the masses.

Not that smart. I thought Necalli was going to be Bison's next host body when he was introduced and that it was all part of the plan. At least then he would've been a little more meaningful. But Capcom went for something much simpler and I understand that now.

 

Capcom are very hesitant to irrevocably change or destroy their popular IPs. The story in Street Fighter serves the characters not the other way around, a hard truth to swallow for those among us who want more and faster progress. Capcom never lost sight of this through the decades, and that is what keeps their characters strong but stagnant.

SF6 offers us the first opportunity for progress in decades, but they are not committing to it. Going through the bits and pieces we have, it's more of the same and I'm fine with that. Just give us our characters and perfect the gameplay.

[Daemos]

14 minutes ago, CESTUS III said:

I want to believe in JP, but instinct tells me he's going to be good as SFV no-moons Bison if we are lucky, possibly another great potential concept used as filler arc material

JP is to Bison what Necalli is to Akuma. But done sooooo much better. That's my hot take. This isn't bad, it's an honor to be mentioned in the same breath as Bison! 😄 Seriously though,. if he's lucky, he can transcend this position and become something more like Seth before him - a popular character with a lot of fans and a very unique style of play that people crave.

 

Not sure why you think Seth treatment is poor, he's an excellent character who is very layered. 
 

 

14 minutes ago, CESTUS III said:

Gill did'nt relied on Bison

 

When SF3 came out in 1997 and for whole SF3 cycle (last time SF actually tried move on from old villains), Bison/Shadaloo was barely mentioned just as something that's no more

Despite a minor blurb in the 90s about how the SS were involved in manipulating world events including Shadaloo, no one knew or gave a shit about Gill in 1997.

 

Gill was reintroduced to gamers more than 2 decades after SF3 as one of the architects behind Shadaloo's fall and as the key backer of several of SF5's main protagonists. His entire prophecy from his 2I ending was reinterpreted to apply to Bison's grand plan. Literally, the character's first claim to fame in the lore chronologically is helping bring down its main villain because HE WANTS TO BE THE MAIN GUY.

I'll give credit to 5 though, it made me like Gill a lot more than before.


 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Daemos

[Doctrine_Dark]

We know Arcade Mode as a prologue and epilogue for every character.

 

But how do you think they'll handle the final boss? 

 

Do you think it'll be like Alpha 2/SF3 2I where everyone has their own unique boss fight? Or will there be a dedicated final boss like Alpha 3/SF2/SF4/SFV?

[Daemos]

12 minutes ago, Doctrine_Dark said:

But how do you think they'll handle the final boss? 

I am hoping for a JP/Nayshall Tournament setting with him as the final boss.

What I think we're getting is that the story of SF6 on year 1 is only the first chapter, possibly even the prologue to a series of decentralized events that will unfold over the next 7-8 years. This probably means that Arcade Mode will have personal bosses, and that there is no one singular villain that catches the attention of everyone.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Daemos

[YagamiFire]

5 hours ago, Daemos said:

All other bosses, including Akuma, Gill and JP tried to establish themselves on the shoulders of Bison. Only Akuma succeeded in becoming something truly great and popular.

KOF has done way better with their bosses, honestly.

 

They first established Rugal, an all-time classic boss that stands shoulder to shoulder with someone like Bison in terms of being an overt bad-ass antagonist. Then they brought in the Orochi, using Rugal as a springboard for the MUCH larger Orochi saga and the villains in it who didn't require Rugal at all to stand on their own. After Orochi, they brought in NESTs who needed nothing from Rugal nor Orochi to establish themselves (becoming my personal favorite villain group in fighting games)...and then they went on to bring in Those From the Past who drew on Orochi stuff due to its popularity and continuing relevance. The weakest angle of all of those ages of villains are TFTP because they were Orochi-adjacent...BUT they established themselves quite well by being very unique and tied into the current main characters. After all that, we then got the all new Verse stuff and a main tournament organizer (Antanov) that is one of the best new bosses introduced in any fighting game in a long time largely because he's NOT villainous and is a genuinely nice guy.

 

SF has struggled to ever get away from Bison. Dude casts a huge shadow for better and, sometimes, for worse, on the entire franchise. They need to be able to get away from that I think. Hopefully JP is a step in that direction.

[YagamiFire]

2 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

Necalli writing has been as quintessential example of capcom shitwriting and lack of balls as you can get, all about rely on cashcows at story development/evolution expense

Yes. This.

[CESTUS III]

3 hours ago, Daemos said:

Not sure why you think Seth treatment is poor, he's an excellent character who is very layered.

Very first Seth concept was very refined design with lot of potential

The nostalgic and aristocratic vibes were there to hint a lab freak that after gaining  self awareness developed a love-hate relationship with humanity, wanting to proof himself superior being but at same digging with both hands in our culture

He of course want to distance himself from other clones, his clear love for some kind of style and finesse was a noble human cosplay and he used to cover most of his body

 

Did'nt lasted much

 

Seth became a lab freak that after gaining  self awareness showed himself as... a naked lab freak, who does lab freak things, in a lab (just like other clones lmao). Holy fuck.

Essentially throwing out of the window anything was good of original concept

 

Then we see all that "NEW BOSS" potential was a farce. Bison make short work of him (with capcom blowjobbing Bison through Juri's disappointment), because as usual capcom fail at commit on new villains and turn them into food for cashcows

Not that naked lab freak, in a lab, Seth deserved anything better btw

 

Then they completely drop the SF4 concept and in a desperate attempt to make him more marktable they literally turn him into lab freak waifu

 

Then they do nothing with waifu Seth either lol

 

Stop me when he get good, must be in some later phase i may have missed

Seth was treated just like a zero ambition filler villain, and was'nt even well developed at that

 

They murdered his character design, the whole imagery of his org/world was barely showed, he had nowhere near the characterization or world building as Bison had with SF2 or Gill with SF3

He existed just the time it took to get rid of him, with his whole arc feeling like a shadaloo filler story lol

 

Not even sure if happened due lazy half ass mindset, actual bad priorities choices or because his whole existence in their mind was just all a big waste of time excuse to get Bison under the spotlight again while doing nothing meaningful... i'm not even sure wich would be worst reason lol

 

Just like... "This is Necalli, he's a millenary creature that eats fighters and that's about it! Here, take 3 Bengus pieces showing a what if prophecy...it's lore!!1!"

We never seen much of Necalli's past

Never seen his actually awakening from, i know it's small deal, millenary sleep

We did'nt seen shit of his whole aztec world imagery

Nothing

We just got millenary being Necalli join SF, then disappear from relevance in the same way he appeared, like a fart

But not before have used him to show "old villains were better", lol capcom in a nutshell

 

2 hours ago, Daemos said:

Despite a minor blurb in the 90s about how the SS were involved in manipulating world events including Shadaloo, no one knew or gave a shit about Gill in 1997.

 

Gill was reintroduced to gamers more than 2 decades after SF3 as one of the architects behind Shadaloo's fall and as the key backer of several of SF5's main protagonists. His entire prophecy from his 2I ending was reinterpreted to apply to Bison's grand plan. Literally, the character's first claim to fame in the lore chronologically is helping bring down its main villain because HE WANTS TO BE THE MAIN GUY.

I'll give credit to 5 though, it made me like Gill a lot more than before.

 

Not even sure how to reply to this lol

You said Gill as a villain exist thanks to Bison legacy

I proven you that when Gill was released in SF3 the story gave zero fucks about Bison or Shadaloo

Because SF3 had 99 problems, first of wich SF2 cast retard genocide (wich made part of me hate it), but at least they had balls and ambition to push new things without subservient mindset

 

Your reply being something like "yeah but nobody cares about SF3/GILL!" does'nt disprove in any way the fact Gill/SS were designed as completely new, indipendent and self sufficient concepts

You can downplay SF3 relevance and i've no problem recognize SF3 was'nt relevant as SF2 (no SF game has been) specially since i prefer the latter, but fact that Gill as Boss had nothing to do with Bison it's hardly debatable

 

Now returning to SFV as i said i liked how they handled Gill, likely because he had the luck of start as an already estabilished char and they could not half ass handle him like a silly Seth/Necalli somebody (actually they feed G and even Urien as jobbers for him lol)

 

I'm not even sure why you're pulling on me Gill using Bison's moon as prophecy like some sort of proof, i was literally the guy telling you about this hidden but pretty straightforward possibility in this thread

It's a clearly wrong or biased interpretation try to paint it as if SFV Gill "wants to be like Bison" (the main guy in your words), because lore wise we know Gill view of Bison run is unlikely to be that respectful or admired

 

Gill have gigantic ego

SS by SFV time is hinted to be already a larger and more influential entity than Shadaloo ever been

Gill is likely confident he would beat Bison in a fight (right or wrong, i would not open this here)

Using the fake prophecy we talked about, Gill seems to want use whole Bison moons thing as advantage to push his own narrative... but that it's not much the method of the small flea riding on big dog back, more like how a powerful politician would use the tantrum of some ugly bearded terrorist as excuse to push his own campaign

 

If anything just show Gill being the perfect middle way between Bison and JP mindsets.... he surely hold in high regard fighters/fighting (who would be his people in his new world) but he appreciate also play chess with people lives keeping his diaper on the throne far from the action

 

Rather than GILL wanting to be the new Bison (Gill would ask "why downgrade?"), is all about Capcom having just shot their Bison bullet with SFV ASF and dropping a teaser of Gill being next villain because timeline wise after ASF we have SF3 events

 

The true Bison-derivative villains were

 

Akuma - literally whole marketing street creds of this trash tryhard sprite recycle of Ryu/Ken were based on him making debut one-shotting Bison

Seth - subproduct by design, but they threw the chance of use it as starting point for something good rather than being his final destination (with a short meaningless path as trash char)

 

That's about it

 

Necalli has been used to hype both Bison and Akuma, all while NOT being developed himself because -insert reasons-

 

3 hours ago, Daemos said:

Akuma is a better Necalli. Garuda is a better Necalli.

 

Holy fuck

By concept Necalli was/could have been much better and original than either

Fact itself we're even debating this feels like just more proof Nec was handled like crap by people that for a reason or another gave us an half-ass mediocre product just to have a char without much meaning beyond being an useful tool to develop or hype other characters

 

3 hours ago, Daemos said:

And if they wanted to emulate Jojo's Pillar Men, Gill did it better first.

This just feels like one of these things the community keep repeat till somehow same people starts believe it

 

Gill had not much in common with Pillar Men beyond maybe look (wich is far more likely coming from HnK Yuda) and his respect for nature/animals

 

Lot of Gill had much to do with Saint Seiya Saga/Gemini (Gill himself was called Gemini in concept phase), for many many reasons that i will not list here now

 

Nobody in SF was "doing" (better or worse) Pillar Men, till SFV straight ripped off Pillar Men from JoJo to do Necalli

 

They did, they even made one of the largest shark jumping of SF history to do it (Necalli is VERY far from usual grounded SF world)... and then they did nothing with it

 

The use they did of Necalli in SF world has been  like introduce a GoT style fire breathing dragon in a Cobra Kai episode and use it to make Johnny cook a steak

Then have it fly away when steak is cooked enough

Actually this sounds awesome, while Necalli story was just mediocre

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by CESTUS III

[CESTUS III]

10 minutes ago, YagamiFire said:

SF has struggled to ever get away from Bison. Dude casts a huge shadow for better and, sometimes, for worse, on the entire franchise. They need to be able to get away from that I think. Hopefully JP is a step in that direction.

And Akuma is even worse

 

Imagine a capcom creative team being forced at gun point to design a NEW villain able to easily  beat the fuck out of Akuma

 

Half team will have heart attack, other half would scream crying "just shoot us, you bastard!"

 

 

Original sin was make of Akuma Ryu's ultimate goal

Now we will never get rid of that crap that cripple whole SF villains world building, and if we do to some extent Ryu die

[Daemos]

45 minutes ago, YagamiFire said:

 

SF has struggled to ever get away from Bison. Dude casts a huge shadow for better and, sometimes, for worse, on the entire franchise. They need to be able to get away from that I think. Hopefully JP is a step in that direction.

Well the audience reaction speaks for itself. SF fans love their characters, and they play them endlessly. Akuma and Bison have huge appeal and brand recognition, but importantly people LOVE playing them. Capcom cannot deny this.

At best, Capcom try to create space and time to let other characters shine. Borrowed space and time, which they will inevitably yield back to the popular characters. In that window, new IPs have to shine and gain traction or they will not make it to the next generation. Necalli, Seth, Juri, were all given the platform to command attention, not all of them made it. 

JP now has an opportunity to shine and stand on his own, if he doesn't he'll disappear and that is no fault of Bison or Akuma. Capcom did their part, Most franchises would *kill* to have villainous characters like these.

I don't personally like Akuma, but the way he resonates with audiences is so very palpable. Truly an iconic character in video gaming. I'm glad that his fans get to enjoy him again.

I won't disagree with you about SNK, they definitely did the whole boss/story thing better, but as I said the story serves the characters in SF not the other way around. The story won't get in the way of character popularity again. Capcom keep investing in their mainline characters because they recognize that as what is valuable. SNK doesn't have this view with their villains.

 

The best players who are "sick" of Bison can get is what we have now. A short-lived hiatus. Let them make the most of it if they truly support these new "villains" (by playing them!), because he is coming.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Daemos

[Doctrine_Dark]

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

I am hoping for a JP/Nayshall Tournament setting with him as the final boss.

What I think we're getting is that the story of SF6 on year 1 is only the first chapter, possibly even the prologue to a series of decentralized events that will unfold over the next 7-8 years. This probably means that Arcade Mode will have personal bosses, and that there is no one singular villain that catches the attention of everyone.

 

That's what I'm expecting as well.

 

 

I'm guessing this is the boss battle dialogue between Kim and JP. JP's "Seems like you're done. How unfortunate" reminded me of the dialogue during SF4's rival battle whenever someone lost.

[CESTUS III]

13 minutes ago, Daemos said:

At best, Capcom try to create space and time to let other characters shine. Borrowed space and time, which they will inevitably yield back to the popular characters. In that window, new IPs have to shine and gain traction or they will not make it to the next generation. Necalli, Seth, Juri, were all given the platform to command attention, not all of them made it. 

It's hard to blame on character's concept ability to win audience within their chapter of debut, if developers do shit job at develop good concepts though

 

Lot of very iconic characters would probably not survive this test if they were released today and supported like some half ass attempts i seen in SFV lol

 

Can't speak for SF6 (wich seem made with pride and love) but recent SF history had clear problem at build up new faces, unless said new faces somehow managed to win audience on their own without much Capcom help

 

General audience having shit tastes does'nt help either

[CESTUS III]

Some SF3 wierdness

 

POV you remember Remy exist but make the gif short because nobody will riot over Remy anyway

 

 

This was lot of fun to do, tricky challenge

With the right clothes he may look legit lol

Love the last shot being creepy af

[Daemos]

36 minutes ago, CESTUS III said:

Lot of very iconic characters would probably not survive this test if they were released today and supported like some half ass attempts i seen in SFV lol

That's not really relevant though. These characters were released at a different time and have stood the test of time.
 

37 minutes ago, CESTUS III said:

It's hard to blame on character's concept ability to win audience within their chapter of debut, if developers do shit job at develop good concepts though

I believe the SF developers do their best at the time. They are fans of the series, and they work with what they know. Things are either going to click or they won't. Juri was an instant hit for example. Viper was given a lot of spotlight in the beginning and she just didn't connect as much.

They are not ashamed of revisiting good ideas that didn't work as well the first time round (see Seth) and try to give them another shot.

Of the SF5 characters, Rashid made a big splash in earlier seasons and was picked up by a lot of people. Ed also came into his own in later seasons. The idea of FANG is also something they still want so AKI. Capcom clearly see these characters as worthy of another opportunity and are banking on them.

So I don't think they are NOT trying to build up new faces, but they won't put their eggs in one basket. SF2 characters will always be there right next to them to pick up the pieces when the new characters "fail" (and many of them will it's just natural).

[Daemos]

5 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

Necalli is BY FAR the most ancient and supernatural being compared to Bison, Gill, Akuma or even Oro

When Pillar Men appeared in JoJo they were the fucking big deal, the origin of their evil was so ancient and deep that Jonathan and Dio problems felt surface af

 

Capcom created a SF world Pillar Man that in theory could/should have made other baddies look like kids... and all they could do, has been use him as a jobber

All while using him as some sort of tryhard important Ryu moment, while at same time losing to Rog of all people lmao

 

To make a VERY cheap example

Narrative wise hey could have made up a Ryu-age Akuma disciple or some other normal human that use a type of ki based on murder intent for that, some sort of mini-Akuma test, able to put Ryu in serious danger but no comparable to Akuma himself, would have made sense

 

Instead they made up the most mythological and supernatural being of SF universe, just to have him play side role of shit stepstone in our dear awkward SFV story

Let that sink

Wanted to respond to this separately. I think most of us are in agreement that this was a poorly handled concept and it could've been done differently then. But instead I'd like to focus on what could be done moving forward to potentially salvage this concept.

I think with Evil Ryu potentially gone for good (doubtful 😕) and Akuma becoming less mysterious/more of a regular, there is an opening for Necalli to fill. The concept has to be reworked slightly and I think they should double-down on the supernatural demon-ghost/shapeshifting element (both in gameplay and aesthetic) to replace Kage/Oni. Like since there are no V-triggers in SF6, base Necalli will have to be VT Necalli (the best part about the character) and work up from there.

Lore-wise Necalli can be reintroduced as a secret boss character that shows up anywhere in WTM if certain conditions are met. (kinda like what Akuma was in some games), His modus operandi would be unchanged (attracted to chaos/strong warriors, always hungry) but they just mature it into something respectable like Garuda. This allows the character to exist within the universe but without breaking the canon. He'll still give powerful albeit outlying villain vibes, and Capcom can use him as a tool down the line to eat characters they don't like if so they choose to.

TL;DR

Take the character to its logical conclusion (Garuda/Oni mashup to spiritually replace Kage/Oni for good).

[Dracu]

4 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

Very first Seth concept was very refined design with lot of potential

The nostalgic and aristocratic vibes were there to hint a lab freak that after gaining  self awareness developed a love-hate relationship with humanity, wanting to proof himself superior being but at same digging with both hands in our culture

He of course want to distance himself from other clones, his clear love for some kind of style and finesse was a noble human cosplay and he used to cover most of his body

 

Did'nt lasted much

 

They should've had this be his Round 1 design in the Arcade Mode and after he goes "Now show me what you're really made off" he pulls out the Tanden Engine and gets naked in Rounds 2 and 3, while also going ham on your ass. Guess the engine didn't support it though, cause he never got this even as an alternate. 

[Daemos]

34 minutes ago, Dracu said:

Guess the engine didn't support it though, cause he never got this even as an alternate. 

This is the closest we got. Capcom gave it to him in SF5 though.

But yes I agree with what you said.

[DarthEnderX]

9 hours ago, Daemos said:

Necalli failed on so many fronts and it had nothing to do with "he was a jobber instead of main villain". The entire plot of the character revolved around him sleeping for hundreds or thousands of years, then appearing for a short period just to eat everyone strong then go back to sleep. Chances are we will never see him again with a plot like that, but that was already planned from the start.

Well, yeah.  Necalli was fucked the moment they decided to make him an alien blob.  Everything after that was irrelevant because they already fucked him up beyond recovery.

9 hours ago, Daemos said:

I thought Necalli was going to be Bison's next host body when he was introduced and that it was all part of the plan.

And I thought the opposite.  That Necalli was going to eat Bison and get his big permanent powerup from that.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by DarthEnderX

[Daemos]

There's nothing inherently wrong with being an undead amoeba. it's just the execution and delivery were piss poor.

 

[DarthEnderX]

7 minutes ago, Daemos said:

There's nothing inherently wrong with being an undead amoeba.

The HARDEST of disagrees.

[Daemos]

So you're fine with him going permanently full amoeba on one of the most iconic characters in fighting games, but you disagree "hardest" with the very premise of being an amoeba. 

You realize this is the same series that gave you:

1- Green Jungle Ape Monster

2- An Indian Mr. Fantastic with the skulls of children around his neck

3- An evil immortal psychic Nazi-esque dictator

4- Whatever the fuck Twelve and Necro were.

5- A spiritual plane manifestation of the dark side of a character's psyche.

6- A centuries old master who fights while holding a TURTLE

7- Alien Bichromatic Jesus and his eugenicist brother

9- Half a dozen clones clones, male and female, some turned into Cyborgs.

10- The bastard child of Abraham Lincoln and Captain Planet.

A shapeshifting blob-spirit is where you draw the line?

Edited May 4, 2023 by Daemos

[CESTUS III]

5 hours ago, Daemos said:

I believe the SF developers do their best at the time. They are fans of the series, and they work with what they know. Things are either going to click or they won't.

and yet going by your own words

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

it's just the execution and delivery were piss poor.

 

Guess we can finally agree capcom did a crapjob on Necalli (+ some others) and that if you do a crapjob at devealop a character you may cripple said character chances to have success, regardless if he's a good concept or not?

 

Because that was whole point

[Daemos]

When it comes to Necalli, I believe the devs were trying to make an outlying villain who is like Akuma but functionally a jobber. So in that respect, the delivery was piss poor and left much to be desired.

 

You want Necalli to be a main villain that supplants Bison, but that was never in the cards is what I argued based on what is known from the devs.

 

I can agree with you that Necalli final package is shit without agreeing with your proposed direction for the character which deviates from what the devs intended.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Daemos

[Hawkingbird]

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

When it comes to Necalli, I believe the devs were trying to make an outlying villain who is like Akuma but functionally a jobber.

I don't. Capcom went hard into the marketing of Necalli during season 1 for that to be true