Fighting Game Lounge

DoctaMario · February 28

Been playing a bunch of USF2 the last few days and was pleasantly surprised to find that there are a lot of people online still playing this. I decided to learn Dhalsim since I've gravitated toward his character archetype after maining Amakusa in SamSho but thankfully Sim is a better character.

Gotta say, SF2 is still really hype. There's something about it not having much besides the characters' movesets that makes comebacks and great reads even cooler than in a lot of newer games.

Edited February 28 by DoctaMario

Sonero · February 28

Why is everybody acting like Mortal Kombat 1 died already? Been getting a lot of vids on youtube on the game being dead.

1 hour ago, DoctaMario said:

Gotta say, SF2 is still really hype. There's something about it not having much besides the characters' movesets that makes comebacks and great reads even cooler than in a lot of newer games.

SF2 got a lot of things right that people, specially people new to the FGC, don't want to acknowledge. People just shit on SF2 for the mistakes it made without considering that it was basically a groundbreaking game. Mistakes in it are due to them having to figure stuff out and not knowing as much about FGs as we do 30 years later.

People are goofy about it though.

DoctaMario · February 29

19 hours ago, Sonero said:

Why is everybody acting like Mortal Kombat 1 died already? Been getting a lot of vids on youtube on the game being dead.

SF2 got a lot of things right that people, specially people new to the FGC, don't want to acknowledge. People just shit on SF2 for the mistakes it made without considering that it was basically a groundbreaking game. Mistakes in it are due to them having to figure stuff out and not knowing as much about FGs as we do 30 years later.

People are goofy about it though.

I've never really heard anyone shit on SF2 other than some young kids whose first fighting game was sfv.

To me it's up there with Tetris as a game that's perfect because of how simple it is. They've added more and more things over the years but imo most of the time those distill the fighting aspect on the game because there's less emphasis on your character's kit and more on whatever subsystem they've put in the game.

Sonero · February 29

3 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

I've never really heard anyone shit on SF2 other than some young kids whose first fighting game was sfv.

Oh dude, the young anime kids are wild with it. They get hype over some long winded ToD but then talk about stuff in SF2 as if it was horribly archaic. Its the game that invented a lot of the understanding of what makes 2D fighting tick. TBH the more you stray from some of the core concepts in that game, the kinda shitty some interactions feel in a game.

Dudes will look you in a straight face and say ST Vega is a broken mess, then in the next tell you how oki that loops into itself is fine in 80 other different games. And its true, ST Vega is broken as hell. At the same time, looping setplay of that type is just shitty every time. As a space for design, this feels like its one thing that hasn't worked out too well (its like a problem we can't solve so they've leaned into it rather than anything else).

Its the same with chip damage, people getting mad at "checkmate situations" and other stuff.

Some stuff it feels like people are trying to outsmart things that were, whether accidentally or not, worked out to be tried and true.

Darc_Requiem · February 29

21 hours ago, Sonero said:

Why is everybody acting like Mortal Kombat 1 died already? Been getting a lot of vids on youtube on the game being dead.

There were issues with the online that cause desync that NRS took a while to fix. With Tekken 8 and Street Fighter 6 out, people were panicking because they were basically doing a better job than NRS.

Side note: Capcom finally fixed an issue of their own. You can expand the search area of match making now.

Sonero · February 29

5 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

There were issues with the online that cause desync that NRS took a while to fix.

Its going a bit beyond that. People are saying the game isn't good and having issues with modes etc. I don't play NRS games so this one doesn't look that much different than what other MK games do. So if this one is doo doo, then all of them are doo doo...?

At this point it feels like twitter is actively bad for games. People are turning so fast against games. Dudes barely learn a match up before they just start shitting on things. It'd make sense if they were sticking to mechanics discussion but wtf.

DoctaMario · March 1

11 hours ago, Sonero said:

Oh dude, the young anime kids are wild with it. They get hype over some long winded ToD but then talk about stuff in SF2 as if it was horribly archaic. Its the game that invented a lot of the understanding of what makes 2D fighting tick. TBH the more you stray from some of the core concepts in that game, the kinda shitty some interactions feel in a game.

Dudes will look you in a straight face and say ST Vega is a broken mess, then in the next tell you how oki that loops into itself is fine in 80 other different games. And its true, ST Vega is broken as hell. At the same time, looping setplay of that type is just shitty every time. As a space for design, this feels like its one thing that hasn't worked out too well (its like a problem we can't solve so they've leaned into it rather than anything else).

Its the same with chip damage, people getting mad at "checkmate situations" and other stuff.

Some stuff it feels like people are trying to outsmart things that were, whether accidentally or not, worked out to be tried and true.

Anime kids get hype watching a number go up because that's something kids can easily understand. You have to play for awhile to understand a neutral heavy game and what makes good neutral play so hype and since most of the games they play aren't neutral heavy, they don't get it. Good as guilty gear is, it's pretty one dimensional in terms of play styles. You go balls out aggressive or you get punished for not doing it.

I saw this Mikado match last night, guile vs Ryu. The Guile was down to a magic pixel while Ryu had 3/4 health and the Guile came back to win the round. I actually yelped out loud because something like that is so rare with a lot of games these days. It's almost like it's not allowed to happen.

Which brings me to what you were saying about checkmate situations. That's a two way street, and like what Viscant was saying in those posts he made about parries, you don't wind up in that situation without doing something to put yourself there. A lot of newer games mitigate those situations with subsystems, so it tracks that players who grew up on games that try to avoid putting the player in checkmate situations wouldn't like them. But man is it sweet when they happen.

SamSho 5 Special is the best game for that kind of thing and it's hype to watch a good player force an opponent into a situation where they have to work against themselves in a way to be able to escape it. Nothing like it.

10 hours ago, Sonero said:

At this point it feels like twitter is actively bad for games. People are turning so fast against games. Dudes barely learn a match up before they just start shitting on things. It'd make sense if they were sticking to mechanics discussion but wtf.

It absolutely is bad for games. One less than perfect thing gets brought up and the whole game is written off as trash. Think of all the potentially great games that are going to fly under the radar because some Twitter autist couldn't deal with the fact that the game wasn't perfect from the jump and got thousands of people to agree with him and parrot his wack take.

Edited March 1 by DoctaMario

Darc_Requiem · March 1

11 hours ago, Sonero said:

At this point it feels like twitter is actively bad

No additional qualifiers needed fam. Twitter is bad.

Sonero · March 1

9 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

21 hours ago, Sonero said:

Expand

Anime kids get hype watching a number go up because that's something kids can easily understand. You have to play for awhile to understand a neutral heavy game and what makes good neutral play so hype and since most of the games they play aren't neutral heavy, they don't get it. Good as guilty gear is, it's pretty one dimensional in terms of play styles. You go balls out aggressive or you get punished for not doing it.

Guilty Gear has different playstyles. In Strive it just feels super overwhelming because ASW kinda design characters to do the thing and do it violently. The turned the forward moving attack Nagoriyuki had into a low. So for 14 frames he travels a quarter of the screen for a low and it also anti airs at random and can cancel into other specials to wreck your lifebar.

It kinda all ties together. SF2 had to work out certain things. The solutions it came up for some stuff just...work. In this case chip damage. We know being extendedly plus is a problem that can happen in a game because it already came up there ( CE Bison and his Technicolor Blockstrings). But there's a section of players that looked at some of those things as the coolest ever and wanted to design games around it.

That's why any games need all sorts of system mechanics. Once you start moving away from stuff SF2 faced and had to fix, you're going head first into problematic territory to see if you can have it make sense. Then you end up with, for lack of a better word, absolute dumb shit. The worst part about this is that devs kind of design themselves into a corner; but a lot of players aren't willing to be...honest enough with themselves that their character is doing something that is fundamentally problematic for the game. Zato is the prime example of this. Where he comes out bonkers, then they inevitably have to nerf him. But ASW is kinda dumbfucky because they never design with "Okay, we know what this character shouldn't be doing" and so let him do dumbfucky stuff that they then have to nerf in some way. Then as a whole it becomes even harder to make limits on a character when other characters doing sillier stuff (lemme tell you, this one gets me personally tight).

Also kinda why I don't like air blocking in Street Fighter games. I jumped and blocked a flash kick and punished it. At least in SF games, somebody jumps and then your special that is meant to anti air does it, is one of those things you don't mess with. You start screwing with basic interactions that just work and you end up in a weird direction that ends up super niche.

10 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

It absolutely is bad for games. One less than perfect thing gets brought up and the whole game is written off as trash. Think of all the potentially great games that are going to fly under the radar because some Twitter autist couldn't deal with the fact that the game wasn't perfect from the jump and got thousands of people to agree with him and parrot his wack take.

SF6 got out of hand with JP (I honestly don't know how that moveset was greenlit), but outside of that a lot of devs are doing what the "popular consensus" is on FG design: make the game bonkers because bonkers games are fun. Where's DNF Duel at? Maximilian talked about the game felt loose and great and all that jazz. Game is a zombie. They made it bonkers, you win by either ToDing somebody or Guardbreaking somebody to hit them with a ToD so the whole thing sucks. Characters are cool but you win shitty. Long combos that people claimed they like, has "sauce" etc. It was a niche group not understand that they are the niche.

MK1 seems to be headed in that direction. People said MKX was bonkers, then MK11 was boring, then they make MK1 crazy with assists and all that and then the game is bad. Its becoming harder to tell what is it that people are asking out of FGs. Mostly because the minority of players whose job is to investigate games (the FGC), is the one doing the yappin' about what's good in a game. The people yapping the most then are doing things like Power Ranges Battle for the Grid.

If this post feels like a muddled, stream of conciousness rant then well because it kinda is. Conversation about sound FG design is kinda being driven by a handful and everybody else is treated as a scrub who doesn't truly understand it etc. But then the people leading the convo keep convincing devs that John Cage is hype while the rest of the crowd thinks Chuck Berry and Johnny Cash are pretty good.

A lot of the players don't get that broken games are fun when the community breaks them, not when they're deliberately made that way.

DoctaMario · March 1

2 hours ago, Sonero said:

Guilty Gear has different playstyles. In Strive it just feels super overwhelming because ASW kinda design characters to do the thing and do it violently. The turned the forward moving attack Nagoriyuki had into a low. So for 14 frames he travels a quarter of the screen for a low and it also anti airs at random and can cancel into other specials to wreck your lifebar.

MK1 seems to be headed in that direction. People said MKX was bonkers, then MK11 was boring, then they make MK1 crazy with assists and all that and then the game is bad. Its becoming harder to tell what is it that people are asking out of FGs. Mostly because the minority of players whose job is to investigate games (the FGC), is the one doing the yappin' about what's good in a game. The people yapping the most then are doing things like Power Ranges Battle for the Grid.

A lot of the players don't get that broken games are fun when the community breaks them, not when they're deliberately made that way.

I can't speak to Strive but every other GG game I've played the original, X, various XX revisions, Xrd, the overall game plan is aggression. You don't have characters like Guile or Dhalsim there because the games actively punish you for playing like that, either with Negative Penalty (which, admittedly, isn't easy to get, but it's there) or with having to burn meter because if your opponent is playing the game incentivizes and you aren't, you're going to get fucked. Sure, Millia and Testament have different play styles, but they're all just varying degrees of aggressive because simply hanging back and letting your opponent make a mistake isn't an option here.

MKX WAS bonkers and very unforgiving, and while I love that game, I actually prefer the combat in MK11 more because it's not as one dimensional. MKX has the same issue I have with GG but even moreso because rushdown 50/50 is the order of the day, whereas in MK11 it isn't like that and you actually have more options as to how to play and if you DO get confirmed, you have ways out of that that actually do cost if you have to use them. As a fighting game, I think 11 is much better than X. Can't speak to 1 because I haven't played it tho.

I'm very much against devs listening to the community, even the tournament playing community, because being good at a game and making a game are two different skills and most of the players don't know what it takes to make a good game. Top players are seen as voices of authority, but usually they will steer devs towards what THEY like (see Wong and that Power Rangers game) which doesn't always make for a good game.

AriesWarlock · March 2

Sonero · March 2

DoctaMario · March 3

Anyone in here still play ST or want to? If so what platform do you play on?

Jurassic · March 4

Fightcade is a good platform to play on. Even Champion Edition has a strong player base on it.

DoctaMario · March 4

1 hour ago, Jurassic said:

Fightcade is a good platform to play on. Even Champion Edition has a strong player base on it.

That seems to be the consensus. Guess if nothing else it'll get me playing 5 Special again too if I'm on there anyway, though hopefully the emulation is better for ST than it is for SamSho.

Edited March 4 by DoctaMario

AriesWarlock · March 4

Pair of Rooks · March 5

ngl i've always found VF to be the most snore-inducing FG of all time, with characters that look like plastic mannequins with the dryest story imaginable.

Any kind of reboot / art style rework is appreciated. Even if it's just for the esports

Neclord · March 7

On 1/25/2024 at 9:35 PM, Darc_Requiem said:

Alright, so who's buying Tekken 8? For reason, has to be insanity, I actually picked up the PC version of the game. Maybe I'll put more than 3 or 4 hours I logged on Tekken 7 into this one. I can't blame @Neclordthis time.

I bought it as well.

I thought SF6 would be all I need and have the time for, but I am always weak. So many good waifus in every game and then there are the new anime fighters like Granblue. 😳

Jion_Wansu · March 11

On 2/28/2024 at 10:29 AM, Sonero said:

Why is everybody acting like Mortal Kombat 1 died already? Been getting a lot of vids on youtube on the game being dead.

SF2 got a lot of things right that people, specially people new to the FGC, don't want to acknowledge. People just shit on SF2 for the mistakes it made without considering that it was basically a groundbreaking game. Mistakes in it are due to them having to figure stuff out and not knowing as much about FGs as we do 30 years later.

People are goofy about it though.

Well, guess MK12 isn't dead yet because it's at EVO this year. Regarding SF2 and the like. The new fighting game players should start out in SF2/SF3/CVS2 games like Smug is doing now. You guys seen Smug play old school games on his youtube channel? This is equivalent to when you were in a math class and the instructors show you the old school ways before you can use the shortcuts and calculators to solve the problems.

DoctaMario · March 12

After playing USF2 for a couple weeks, I'm at a point where I'm smoking more of the beginner players but getting smoked by the better cats. I feel like I'm in no man's land right now lol

Dragonfave723 · March 18

AriesWarlock · March 18

Same vids, official

Edited March 18 by AriesWarlock

AriesWarlock · March 21

Quote

The developers note that BlazBlue Director Toshimichi Mori, who is no longer at ArcSys, is not voicing Paracelsus this time around with Akira Kamiya taking over the role in Japanese. You may recognize that name as the voice actor of Kenshiro in Fist of the North Star, Ryo Saeba in City Hunter, and many other roles spanning more than 50 years.

Edited March 22 by AriesWarlock

AriesWarlock · March 26

Quote

After coming out to drop a bunch of alleged details about a reboot earlier this month, a prominent Sega / Atlus leaker is back with some more information regarding Virtua Fighter and also Streets of Rage.

Midori, who's had a pretty solid track record up to this point, recently put up a few more posts about the rumored Sega projects that's a bit interesting.

According to the leaker, there will be a "new Virtua Fighter reveal later this year" while a new Streets of Rage game is being worked on by Canadian studio Komi Games, who previously made Mighty Fight Federation.

Since English isn't Midori's native language, it's a bit unclear if they are talking about the alleged Virtua Fighter reboot or perhaps a new remake, re-release or collection of older titles.

AriesWarlock · March 28

Bamco striking down videos with mods

Edited March 28 by AriesWarlock

AriesWarlock · March 30

AriesWarlock · April 1

AriesWarlock · April 3

AriesWarlock · April 5

AriesWarlock · April 8

Darc_Requiem · April 8

Damn, everyone was worried about Capcom's mod policies. Namco really said hold my beer. WTF are they doing? They are speed running their villain arc after getting so much goodwill with Tekken 8 initially.