The Street Fighter VI Story Thread: Shadaloo Died so Luke Could Live!

[YagamiFire]

Oh I won't disagree with you about the stupidity of the retcons

 

Bringing Gouken back was stupid AF even if he is one of my favorite characters to play. There was ZERO reason to do that and Gouken doesn't even factor into SF5. It was nothing but a cheap shock tactic of a character.

 

Akuma has killed Goutetsu...and that's about it. Taking the killing of Gouken away from him was absolutely idiotic on Capcom's part

 

It's one of the reasons I'm okay with a reboot at this point. They need the opportunity to tell the story COHERENTLY and cleanly from the beginning

[Daemos]

31 minutes ago, Sonero said:

Akuma needs a really good W in story mode.

 

He got a couple in SF5.

He beat Ryu in SF5 after he beat Bison and Necalli, but for some unknown reason does not kill him.

 

He beat and killed Gen in SF5.

He also beat Necalli and "killed" him who is supposed to be canonically at least OP.

And of course he beat Goutetsu which is also OP.

His only actual loss was with Gouken in SF4. So they are 1 for 1 now.

He sandbagged his fight with Gen and refused to kill him (this contrasts how he has become in SF5, more inhumane). He also sandbagged the fight with Ryu in SFA2 to plant the seed of the SNH in his ear.

He never fought Bison, and the status of his SF3 fights is still unknown.

I don't like defending this troll especially after his cheap parlor trick in ST at the expense of 'THE ONE TRUE VILLAIN'™ but he still has something going for him in terms of strength and power.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Daemos

[Sonero]

4 minutes ago, Daemos said:

He beat Ryu in SF5 after he beat Bison and Necalli, but for some unknown reason does not kill him.

 

He beat and killed Gen in SF5.

 

Is this in the Akuma story mode?

 

Maybe its because I haven't played in a while, but I don't remember a lot of that.

[Daemos]

4 minutes ago, Sonero said:

 

Is this in the Akuma story mode?

 

Maybe its because I haven't played in a while, but I don't remember a lot of that.

Yes. It's one of the better character stories as we see Akuma actually killing opponents for the first time, and we are lead to believe that he finally lost it since the old Akuma would never kill a sick man. But then he fights Ryu, and stops short of killing him. We are left to ponder if Akuma still has humanity left in him? And why did he spare Ryu? Are they family like the expanded universe points us to? Or is he simply willing to wait out until he reaches his full potential and then fight him. Both?

[ShockDingo]

4 hours ago, YagamiFire said:

Like, I'm sorry, if I had my way I'd have Gill demolish Akuma in a fight and do so by pointing out how utterly imbalanced Akuma's spirit is, making it impossible for him to beat someone as perfectly centered as Gill...

See, THAT would be awesome and less of a power level thing. I get that Gill is powerful and I'm a huge advocate of SF not falling into DBZ power creep, but I love clever techniques and methodologies being utilized to show power not just "lol stronk". It would also be such an amazing "oh snap!" moment for the audience.

[Shakunetsu]

Actually the foundation about him and Ryu being related in blood is actually weak, it's like saying Ken is secretly attracted to Ryu because of certain points.

 

And it wasn't really a thing even in SFA or SF3 nor in early canon materials. It's more of a fanfic and something became a thing after the SFA OVAs.

but it was never been something in 90s or early 2ks even the early win quotes. All Akuma is asking is a death battle for someone he thinks is equal in the past.

 

Because he believe SNH is above anything else(in his bubble) and without it(SNH) he cannot be equaled. Which is false. I remember back in the day I wrote a large fanfic of this in SRK on how will Ryu do it.

 

What Akuma cares is SNH or someone that can fight him not really Ryu in the OG SF games

 

But now I think they probably just make him do suicide and then test people reception to him.

 

The truth is before fanfics and etc.

 

Akuma wasn't designed to be Ryu dedicated character. His someone that prefers to fight someone he thinks to be equal in fact in  CVS2

 

He sees Orochi is something that can equal his SNH so thats where he lingers

 

 

 

 

 

In MVSF and XVSF his never even see RYU even special or worthy, He got his eyes on Wolverine instead HAHA

 

 

There were no Akuma teasing Ryu, or any kind of interaction. It's more Akuma teasing Wolverine haha

 

Because in the early times Akuma wasn't really concern to Ryu or see Ryu something important as a person

 

Akuma X Ryu Wolverine 

 

What really Akuma is concern with Ryu is the potential not Ryu being a better Fighter but him having SNH as well. It's all about SNH not Ryu or Ryu becoming a better fighter.

 

 

It wasn't even Akuma that sought after Ryu, It's Ryu that sought after Akuma and seeks answers. before modern days 3d SF games

 

In Zero/Alpha it's more of Ryu X Bison everywhere

 

 

 

It's everywhere in Alpha/Zero while absent in Akuma

 

Ryu

 

 

Bison

 

 

Sagat

 

 

Sakura

 

 

Everyone is saving Ryu while Bison is obsessing over Ryu, and Akuma is nowhere. 

 

Rose warns Ryu about Bison, Sakura, Sagat and Ken tried to save Ryu.

 

Meanwhile Akuma in Alpha 3 even in Alpha 2, Akuma doesn't give a sh!t on what would happen to Ryu.

 

He got Gen

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Shakunetsu

[BootyWarrior]

2 hours ago, Daemos said:

His only actual loss was with Gouken in SF4. So they are 1 for 1 now.
 

 

He lost to Gouken when Ryu and Ken were teenagers. So it's 2-1 in Gouken's favor. All those years where Gouken "died", Akuma was training, only to lose to Gouken who just woke up from his sleep.

 

My only wish is for Capcom to put Garuda in SF6. Either Akuma loses badly or he spends the entire series running away from it like he did in SFEX.

[Shakunetsu]

29 minutes ago, BootyWarrior said:

 

My only wish is for Capcom to put Garuda in SF6

His my favorite guest character for SF and nothing else.

[Sonero]

 

 

Forgot that Akuma is the reason we got Pregnant Necalli. Is Akuma letting Ryu live constantly in hopes that Ryu surpasses him?

 

There are a lot of high tier SF characters that he could be trying to fight but he doesn't seek them out. Akuma got it bad for Ryu but he won't admit it to himself. 🥰

[CESTUS III]

3 hours ago, BootyWarrior said:

 

He lost to Gouken when Ryu and Ken were teenagers. So it's 2-1 in Gouken's favor. All those years where Gouken "died", Akuma was training, only to lose to Gouken who just woke up from his sleep.

 

My only wish is for Capcom to put Garuda in SF6. Either Akuma loses badly or he spends the entire series running away from it like he did in SFEX.

As hilarious would be, fuck Garuda too, would be just more stronk japan

Would give me "it takes stronk japan to beat stronk japan" Baki style circle jerk philosophy

 

Apex of SF food chain already is filled with stronk japan, i think at the moment a good guess on who are the Top 5 may have 4 out 5 lol

 

Oro, Akuma, Gouken (?), Gill (?), Ryu (?)

 

@YagamiFire idea of Gill being the one giving Akuma an ass beating would be already something less Baki and a little step to return in that old SF feel of world being big place full of powerful fighters

 

Had hopes for Necalli when trailer vs Ryu was showing him "eating" Ryu's SnH, could have been perfect candidate to pull a Garuda on Akuma... then they did nothing with it.

Or better, they used Necalli to show how stronk Akuma is

 

Another could have been G, dude had new big villain hype going with him (plus empty promises by Capcom), but reality is they did nothing with him except make him play fool guy gimmick and getting his ass beaten by Gill and Rose lol

[Miðgarðsorm]

I asked Quasimodox for another commission, and this is the result. Love it.

 

[YagamiFire]

Gotta say I agree with Maximilian big time that a Luke vs Sean rivalry would be GREAT for SF6

[YagamiFire]

10 hours ago, ShockDingo said:

See, THAT would be awesome and less of a power level thing. I get that Gill is powerful and I'm a huge advocate of SF not falling into DBZ power creep, but I love clever techniques and methodologies being utilized to show power not just "lol stronk". It would also be such an amazing "oh snap!" moment for the audience.

Thanks. I like to generally think in terms of 'match-up' for most Street Fighter stuff. It's far more interesting to have interactions between peoples style (both physical and spiritual) than just "Well this guys power level is higher"

[Daemos]

11 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

it's like saying Ken is secretly attracted to Ryu because of certain points.

It's not a secret! MOVE OVER SAKURA!!!!!

 

 

11 hours ago, BootyWarrior said:

He lost to Gouken when Ryu and Ken were teenagers. So it's 2-1 in Gouken's favor. All those years where Gouken "died", Akuma was training, only to lose to Gouken who just woke up from his sleep.

I'm getting old but I don't remember this fight.

The timeline of events in my headcanon is:

Gouken and Gouki are relatively equal, but Goutetsu favors Gouken to take after him.

Gouki goes to the forests and trains, comes back as a troll and kills Goutetsu and vows to come back and fight Gouken. Ryu is adopted at this point so he was around when Goutetsu was killed. Ken probably was not.

Years later, Akuma comes for Gouken, at this point Ken and Ryu are about 17-19 years old. Akuma "kills" Gouken who falls into a ravine. 

About 4-5 years later, Gouken returns by the power by Mu and defeats Akuma (to protect Ryu) who retreats and develops new powerful attacks to replace SGS which has no effect on MNK.

So it's 1 for 1 AFAIK but someone please correct me if I missed a fight. 

My suspicion is the next fight between the two will end with Gouken dying because Drama is needed before the end game.

[Daemos]

1 hour ago, YagamiFire said:

Gotta say I agree with Maximilian big time that a Luke vs Sean rivalry would be GREAT for SF6

You know it's gonna be something shitastic like Luke vs Ed. Like who the fuck cares? Who do you even root for in this situation, let them both die.

[YagamiFire]

48 minutes ago, Daemos said:

You know it's gonna be something shitastic like Luke vs Ed. Like who the fuck cares? Who do you even root for in this situation, let them both die.

I like Ed's fighting style so I'd root for Ed...plus Ed has a story I care about because he helped give Balrog more growth in 1 game than over 30 years

[Daemos]

Just now, YagamiFire said:

I like Ed's fighting style so I'd root for Ed...plus Ed has a story I care about because he helped give Balrog more growth in 1 game than over 30 years

I guess I'll join you then.

But only because we need to keep all Psycho Horcruxes™ safe and sound.

[Shakunetsu]

2 hours ago, YagamiFire said:

Gotta say I agree with Maximilian big time that a Luke vs Sean rivalry would be GREAT for SF6

Yeah even replacing Luke in the trailer with Sean instead would had made it 10x better haha

 

It's even a good call back to SF3 Sean ending. Missed Opportunity

2 hours ago, YagamiFire said:

Thanks. I like to generally think in terms of 'match-up' for most Street Fighter stuff. It's far more interesting to have interactions between peoples style (both physical and spiritual) than just "Well this guys power level is higher"

Yeah it's like he already met his possible match that all of this years his yearning for

 

Akuma's winquotes:

 

Marvel vs. Capcom 3

"It's always fun to kill a god."

"I have killed a god with my fists!"

 

 Street Fighter 4

"My fists can destroy even the gods!"

 

SFxTekken

"The flames of a god are powerless before the Satsui no Hado!"

"The path of destruction I carve brings even the gods of thunder to their knees!"

 

Asura Wrath

Akuma: "Grr... Satisfy my hunger for power, god of wrath!"

 

Because Gill can cheat death and Gill was an actual divine being that a street fighter universe can provide for real that those crossover game can only give to him but not in SF

 

 

His the actual foil. Because Gill is everything he wants and even death cannot destroy Gill

 

The good thing is they never had met yet or seen each other. And  the secret society hadn't also known his existence.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Shakunetsu

[Shakunetsu]

4 minutes ago, Daemos said:

But only because we need to keep all Psycho Horcruxes™ safe and sound.

It's likely that they(Fang and Shadaloo) will just find a way to drain all Psycho Power back to your almighty Bison anyway.

 

Basically Bison, Gill and Seth are immortal in some way or form.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Shakunetsu

[Scotia]

5 hours ago, YagamiFire said:

Gotta say I agree with Maximilian big time that a Luke vs Sean rivalry would be GREAT for SF6

Where did he say this? I don't really care about Luke and Sean having a rivalry (I think Sean is above him tbqh), but if Max is talking about wanting Sean then there's a good chance his legion of casuals will start parroting him and we end up having more people ask for him, which is a win in my book 😂

Edited February 25, 2022 by Scotia

[Daemos]

4 minutes ago, CESTUS III said:

And tbh they're not bad characters, you seem to consider that opinion as given but it's just your

I'm not saying they are bad characters, I am saying I don't care about them. There is nothing to care about. In fact, as an old school player I find their imposition in the series to be appalling because they - like all "Protégé/Kid" characters - are meant to supplant their predecessors and hog the spotlight. That's a hard no for me. 

Alex and Rashid are great "main characters". Luke is not, and Ed is a damn plot device.

[Sonero]

3 hours ago, Daemos said:

Alex and Rashid are great "main characters". Luke is not, and Ed is a damn plot device.

 

Excuse me sir but I need you to calm down. Hating Luke is a bannable offense in SRK.

 

Don't wanna have to report you.

[Sonero]

Watching d44bas streaming A3 and...

 

I really hope SF6 has a new doll. Feel like there were some good doll designs that should've been characters and were relegated to story mode fodder.

[Shakunetsu]

1 hour ago, Sonero said:

I really hope SF6 has a new doll. Feel like there were some good doll designs that should've been characters and were relegated to story mode fodder.

Me too, I always wanted Noembelu the girl from Thawks tribe or the twin sister dolls Xianyu and Jianyu as one character.

[Phantom_Miria]

3 hours ago, Sonero said:

 

Excuse me sir but I need you to calm down. Hating Luke is a bannable offense in SRK.

 

Don't wanna have to report you.

Fool, for you forget that we are not in SRK forums anymore.

These are the Megashock forums, and your Luke stanning powers are meaningless in this wild realm of ours.

[Sonero]

Goddamn I got cooked.

[CESTUS III]

10 hours ago, Daemos said:

I'm not saying they are bad characters, I am saying I don't care about them. There is nothing to care about. In fact, as an old school player I find their imposition in the series to be appalling because they - like all "Protégé/Kid" characters - are meant to supplant their predecessors and hog the spotlight. That's a hard no for me. 

Alex and Rashid are great "main characters". Luke is not, and Ed is a damn plot device.

Don't know why make it old school player thing, i'm born in '83 and have incurable nostalgia for SF2, i still don't close my mind to new stuff

 

I HATED it being done in antagonistic way as SF3 was denying the chance of get classic chars, but i doubt we risk that shit again, pretty sure SF6 will be filled by familiar faces too... if anything teaser gave me vibes will play hard on old guard vs new blood contrast, wich feels why SF3 should have done back in the days

 

Alex at least visually was indeed better character design than Luke, but that's a problem of SF as a whole, not of Luke... SF seem simply no more able to design shit as good as past ones, not even best SFV new designs are on par with best SFA, SF3 and even SF4 best stuff

If i must pick the design crap that's SFV Alex (to use more fair ground) i take Luke 10/10, and that's me who consider original Alex one of best chara designs of SF3

 

But story wise? Alex was handled like shit (not bad as many many others, but still)

Whole SF3 arc has been treated like shit, they gave him an ambiguous W over Gill hinting situation was sketchy as if they had to continue story to explain it, then SF just gone beyond SF3 and all Alex is left with an half ass "W" that may very well be usual Gill's trolling

 

Rashid is not a protagonist (a good character btw), any "Hero of SFV" talk some did back to ASF was delusional, Rashid is pretty much quintessence of supporting side character with lot screen time.

Damn Rashid was'nt even the protagonist of his mini-sub group and clearly the weakest of it (unless we want count Hazam, who MAY be weaker than Rashid... or not lol) and everybody in that russian pub room -Urien/Kolin/Juri/Nash- would moop the ground with his ass, with little effort while at it

 

Luke as protagonist at least have the chance to be a fresh new page... of course, they can very well fuck his story too, as nobody beat Capcom at create great characters and completely waste their potential, it's basically a lifestyle for them

 

But at least bother to wait and see before claim he failed already as character, and even after that realize the problem maybe is'nt the new character itself being bad, but SF having pathetic storytelling sense and poor self awareness (best lore though)

 

On other side speaking about Ed, Ed in SFV was handled wrong (like COMPLETELY wrong) starting from the fact he even have wrong timeline design,as we should have got him with his hoodie/tracksuit costume as default together with young asshole attitude he have, while NS uniform Ed should have been at best an alt because canon wise it should have been a thing of the future and supported by a change of attitude (way more serious/sinister as Bison influence is taking over)

 

I understand and agree Kiki's urban clothes designs were too flat shitty to be use as standard, but still was objectively wrong choice give us Ed in his NS version

They should just have focused on give him actually good and detailed young/urban clothes version of him (something closer to Luke's Battle Alt) able to stand as his standard look

Other reason is of course they wanted that hard him and Falke have that visual connection because japan sometimes just feel the need of this kind of shit

(guess is also the reason lore is infested by these silly Dolls, who despite being mostly bland and repetitive designs somehow have an audience due waifu power)

 

But still they can fix him in 6, and reality is Ed is a solution to a problem that Capcom itself caused with their refusal to left their comfort zone, they should just have made SFV about Necalli or G as final villain (in my opinion there was room even for both, if capcom could handle different paths at same time) and make Bison a side figure that plan shit in a corner as he was in SF4 or as Gill is in SFV

 

If was like that nobody would be too pissed at Bison even in SF6 vanilla cast, only reaction i remember when was announced in SFV was people -me included- saying his V redesign while soft was cool af

 

But they made Bison the final boss once more, they made him lose once more and they even made big deal about his destruction... now, we know he's not dead dead, but still have him quickly return would make everything even more a farce than how already was

Plus of course, basically nobody wants Bison anywhere close to Boss position for years

 

Guess we will get the NeoShadaloo arc where fully influenced Ed will need to get punch-to-the face exorcism, after wich PP will somehow (Soul Power?) be expelled from his body (and from Falke/Knife/Gorilla too) then you will have Fang there somehow using it to resurrect Bison

 

In all of this i hope Ed is'nt even final boss, because while not Bison-Bison would still be too fucking much Shadaloo/PP related, and just as stronk japan bullshit that another side where SF would need to get wider perspective

 

I think G is the perfect Boss for SF6 (unless we get NEW better candidate) as for once shows the threat come from a new (and original/interesting) direction

 

Smartest path they can take for the actual Bison DLC charater (because i refuse to think he will be on vanilla cast) is either use Bison in his spirit form that lives in NS members heads or -better- in VERY late seasons have Fang doing experiments to have Bison in a new physical body stepping out of some silly scifi incubator tank to do  his "mwhahahawa" before SF6 is over, but that's it

 

Reality is if done right (big IF)  Ed arc may easily be more interesting than Bison's return

 

Change of attitude (time jump+PP problems), SF6 redesign (wich will go surely into more serious direction) and moveset that reflect he learned to use better his powers... a fixed Ed may end up better character than you give him credit for, the potential is there

 

Now, i get i'm saying "hey Buddha can be cool too, good change for a while" to the Pope, but still

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by CESTUS III

[CESTUS III]

6 hours ago, Sonero said:

Watching d44bas streaming A3 and...

 

I really hope SF6 has a new doll. Feel like there were some good doll designs that should've been characters and were relegated to story mode fodder.

Save one between

 

Better Noembelu (native american one) on the left, can replace T.Hawk as NA char and i will be ok with it, plus Elena can cover tribal girl already and have more interessing style for SF with her Capoeira

 

The rest of dolls

Edited February 25, 2022 by CESTUS III

[BootyWarrior]

Rashid failed the assignment when Juri challenged him to a fight and he, the main character, hid behind his butler. I've seen many protagonists in fighting games, but i've never seen one who'd run away from  a fight. If it was any other protagonist this would've happened: 

 

Spoiler

 

And then there's G who's supposed to be the boss of SFV...

[YagamiFire]

5 hours ago, BootyWarrior said:

Rashid failed the assignment when Juri challenged him to a fight and he, the main character, hid behind his butler. I've seen many protagonists in fighting games, but i've never seen one who'd run away from  a fight. If it was any other protagonist this would've happened: 

 

  Hide contents

 

And then there's G who's supposed to be the boss of SFV...

Jin is ten thousand times the protag that Rashid is. You're spot-on. Rashid hiding behind his butler was shameful. It's not even funny...it's just stupidly putting Juri over for thirsty Juri-fans at the expense of a character we're supposed to get invested in.

 

Bad booking 101

[CESTUS III]

But tbh whole Rashid gimmick is being middle-tier char with the heart in the right place who jump in to do his part, barely even show a "fighter"/martial artist side, behave more like some sort of not too serious adventurer

 

Even when he win his most important fight where for a moment they change him into a serious fighter type, it was an unnatural/rare mood for him, as was the reaction of hear Fang telling that he killed his friend

 

Personally i liked him, probably because i never considered him "shonen hero" kind of guy, but more like side character that help how he can... probably most "human" char

Like, he's not the guy that will beat the Boss, but he will still risk his ass doing useful stuff

 

I liked the scene where he try to stop Urien from  further beat up/kill Nash, gave the impression he knew he was really outmatched but still did a move

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by CESTUS III

[ShockDingo]

Yeah, I'll be another in Rashid's corner. He's lighthearted and goofy and yeah, Juri's scary- he's probably only ever fought "normal people" not psychos wanting his head smashed in. I saw it less of putting Juri over, though that could have been the dev's reason, and showing Rashid being reluctant to go hardcore with someone who clearly wants to murder him rather than have a sporting fight. Comedic cowardice scene  or not, when things got serious he stepped up multiple times. So many fight quotes refer to Urien fighting like nothing they've ever seen, even the vets, so here Rashid not only saw him in action, he saw him utterly demolish Charlie, but still grabbed his arm to stop him. He didn't point and yell from across the room while shaking. He had great emotionally earnest scenes with Charlie and despite my many issues with Charlie's portrayal in ASF, I enjoyed those. I'll take the middle-tier, likeable, imperfect, underdog than the tortured, burdened with destiny, edgy guy. Maybe it's because it's been ages since I last played Tekken and missed a couple entries, but I never was interested in him.

[Daemos]

13 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

But they made Bison the final boss once more, they made him lose once more and they even made big deal about his destruction... now, we know he's not dead dead, but still have him quickly return would make everything even more a farce than how already was

SF5's story according to one of the first ASF interviews with Ono was not meant to be the demise of Bison, it was meant to simply close the gaps between SF2 and SF3, a canonical project that started with SF4. SF5 succeeds in this by explaining away the absence of Shadaloo and setting up the stage for Gill's arrival (right down to the prophecy mentioned in his first SF3 ending). Yes they made a big deal about the destruction of Shadaloo, but not about Bison.

We always knew that Bison was not dead during the time of SF3. There is an interview from the early 00s where  someone asked a Capcom rep where is Bison and they mentioned that he was alive and/or underground. This was a few years before SF4 IIRC.

Things we probably can agree on:

 

1- Shadaloo is over for the foreseeable future.

2- Bison should not return as a final boss for at least 2 entries in the canon series starting with SF6.

3- They fucked up the climax of SF5 because a 2D game from 2 decades ago had a better Bison climax than this (Alpha3).

 

13 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

Smartest path they can take for the actual Bison DLC charater (because i refuse to think he will be on vanilla cast) is either use Bison in his spirit form that lives in NS members heads or -better- in VERY late seasons have Fang doing experiments to have Bison in a new physical body stepping out of some silly scifi incubator tank to do  his "mwhahahawa" before SF6 is over, but that's it

 

More or less agree here. He could hypothetically be in the vanilla cast especially if there is a big enough time skip but it would be anticlimactic after SF5. If Bison will be a canonical character in SF6 and not a what-if like Nightmare Geese, then he is best reserved for the mid or late DLC seasons like how they handled Gill and Seth in SF5. 

 

[YagamiFire]

I don't dislike Rashid. In fact, I have his SH Figuarts. What I hate is SF's INSANE obsession with making almost everyone a joke or a caricature in a way that undermines the stakes and narrative they're trying to create. It's so stupid.

[Daemos]

3 minutes ago, YagamiFire said:

I don't dislike Rashid. In fact, I have his SH Figuarts. What I hate is SF's INSANE obsession with making almost everyone a joke or a caricature in a way that undermines the stakes and narrative they're trying to create. It's so stupid.

Wouldn't you say that historically speaking it's been about 50/50? Maybe even more joke than grit in tone? This dates back to SF2 at least.

[YagamiFire]

4 minutes ago, Daemos said:

Wouldn't you say that historically speaking it's been about 50/50? Maybe even more joke than grit in tone? This dates back to SF2 at least.

Absolutely not 50/50. Just looking at them...

 

Ken gets married. Not a joke.

Ryu has his obsession with fighting reinforced. Not a joke.

Chun-Li is LITERALLY AT HER DAD'S GRAVE.

Honda's is about him with his students. It's lighthearted but not stupid.

Zangief dances with totally-not-a-real-person Russian leader. A joke.

Blanka is reunited with his mother. Not treated as a joke.

Guile is talked out of MURDERING someone.

Dhalsim goes home to his family. Lighthearted but not a joke.

 

Then compare to SFAlpha where stuff is treated seriously. The core narratives and threat and drama is treated as legitimate. Since at least SF4, Capcom has had an obsession with undermining a lot of their own stuff and it's really annoying. Tekken is KNOWN for its joke endings but treats its CORE narrative as serious and dramatic. SF just can't seem to handle that because it veers too much into cartoon stupidity and OHHHH SOOOO WACKY moments

 

I'm not against humor or for any kind of grim-dark tone...I just wish SF didn't seem so often like it was putting itself down

[Scotia]

I know it's probably not fair to do so, but I blame A LOT of the stupid humour in SF4 and 5 on Ono. A character like Abigail is just so stupidly shit that it screams that only person found it funny and pushed for it really hard.

 

Just the general tone of some characters and even the stages just feels like everything that isn't directly tied to the main plot has to be extremely goofy. Dan is just incredibly pathetic now. Ibuki literally just wants some dick (remember when she was a ninja who went on important missions?). Everything about Birdie in 5. I mean, take the Shadaloo stage in 5 for example. That's pretty much the stage where the final battle takes place, and you have guys in jetpacks flying around fighting ninjas like they're in a slapstick comedy. It's ridiculous. 

 

I hope that with Ono gone we can move towards having a more genuine sense of humour with some elements instead of the most random shit being dumb as hell for no reason.  

[Shakunetsu]

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

More or less agree here. He could hypothetically be in the vanilla cast especially if there is a big enough time skip but it would be anticlimactic after SF5. If Bison will be a canonical character in SF6 and not a what-if like Nightmare Geese, then he is best reserved for the mid or late DLC seasons like how they handled Gill and Seth in SF5. 

 

 

To be fair, I don't think the whole CFN Phantom Bison will continue, were just waiting for how they will implement Bison in SF6, but regardless Bison will return in physical form in DLC because of $$$, the only thing I would worry is that Bison would turn in this instead

 

 

I have a feeling the whole Neo Shadaloo and Fang regardless how they should set the future stage, would just be ultimately skip and set aside, same with G. To give way to their brand new world, new antagonist organization and new story of how street fighter would be. Then they just say Bison manage to return physically just like ED manage to instantly grow up and Sean became a kid.

 

But characters like Bison, Akuma, Juri and an edgy version of a character(can be Luke, Sakura, Ryu and etc) will always be staple

 

 

 

 

[YagamiFire]

2 hours ago, Scotia said:

I mean, take the Shadaloo stage in 5 for example

Oh god you just reminded me of that...

 

A perfect example of absolute stupidity

[Daemos]

10 minutes ago, YagamiFire said:

A perfect example of absolute stupidity

Are we talking about the ring of power or Shadaloo HQ? Nvm they are both silly. But the former was done for fun and the esports circuit. It was super hype watching Bison defeat Akuma in the evo finals on that stage. Probably the peak boss moment for the character and vengeance against that troll.

[YagamiFire]

2 minutes ago, Daemos said:

Are we talking about the ring of power or Shadaloo HQ? Nvm they are both silly. But the former was done for fun and the esports circuit. It was super hype watching Bison defeat Akuma in the evo finals on that stage. Probably the peak boss moment for the character and vengeance against that troll.

Shadaloo HQ where the ninjas chase the robots in the background. It looks BEYOND stupid. It's legitimately cringe and embarrassing

[CESTUS III]

6 hours ago, Daemos said:

SF5's story according to one of the first ASF interviews with Ono was not meant to be the demise of Bison, it was meant to simply close the gaps between SF2 and SF3, a canonical project that started with SF4. SF5 succeeds in this by explaining away the absence of Shadaloo and setting up the stage for Gill's arrival (right down to the prophecy mentioned in his first SF3 ending). Yes they made a big deal about the destruction of Shadaloo, but not about Bison.

We always knew that Bison was not dead during the time of SF3. There is an interview from the early 00s where  someone asked a Capcom rep where is Bison and they mentioned that he was alive and/or underground. This was a few years before SF4 IIRC.

And i don't disagree with that, i'm just pointing that in current canon they chosen to have him destroyed to add further drama to the moment, and the whole idea of Ed/NS representing the shattered pieces of that evil is brilliant way to handle it, goes beyond Ed being just a younger/edgy new version of him... would say Ed literally incarnating the aftermath make to Bison's legacy a better favor than any instant "mwhaahawa i'm back" gimmick that will make people only more annoyed by Bison spam

 

I also loved the idea of Psycho Power having a negative impact on the world without need directly Bison, feels like say that the problem with a nuclear bomb is not only the missile and the destructive BOOM that comes with it, but the radiations afterwards

 

This not only important for Bison because it further add the damage he did, but show how Psycho Power can represent a great threat beyond direct fighting itself, a field where we already seen Bison getting defeated more than once... at this point is clear Bison's image is being threated more like G (who still have to do shit, and already lost twice... and still seem to currently represent world's greatest danger) than Akuma's

 

Half OT, from Rose's story and i have the feel that

(theory)

-The artificial creation of an excess of Psycho Power cause an imbalance on earth's natural energies, and that's causing the planet(Gaia) to react against humanity like our body would try to defeat a virus (wich can parallel easily with modern/trendy theme of earth pollution)

-The great danger represented by G may take the form of a Great Flood (like the biblical one, wich exist in many cultures) that would whipe out/reset civilization and left very few (if any) humans alive.

Rose say "As if gigantic glacer fell into the ocean" -> rising oceans -> Great Flood

G power takes the form of magma, so if they want stick to it maybe Gaia's purge will be eruptions causing rising of temperature -> ice melting -> ocean rise

-I doubt G will directly trigger it or even have the power to do so, more like he will try oppose anybody that will try to stop these events to happen. I think his ki absolute tuning with the planet energies took over his mind making him crazy and fanatic, but not "evil" wich is an human concept

 

Or maybe opposite disaster and Rose describe it as glacier related to describe a new ice age, similar results even if Great Flood for many reasons makes more sense to me

 

6 hours ago, Daemos said:

Things we probably can agree on:

 

1- Shadaloo is over for the foreseeable future.

2- Bison should not return as a final boss for at least 2 entries in the canon series starting with SF6.

3- They fucked up the climax of SF5 because a 2D game from 2 decades ago had a better Bison climax than this (Alpha3).

Yeah we agree on these

About point 3, aside me not liking ASF story whole structure and events, i think there was also a simple straightforward technical problem about how has been represented... essentially Bison defeat/destruction looked like ass

 

Not that on general capcom did that epic effort at do spectacular cutscene fights, but let's just compare how they handledRyu vs Necalli and Bison (latter being more important/bigger fight according to the script)

 

Ryu-Necalli -> cool af, Ryu goes DBZ, break his SnH related limits and finish Necalli with a completely new(ingame canon) ultimate technique that does shiny big bang

Ryu-Bison -> Bison throw one last silly attack, Ryu strainght tanks it with no much effort, replies with a kinda normal looking hadouken (a shinku hadouken if we want be generous) and that's it

 

Now, was very cool that afterward scene have him die standing like ultimate Chad Raoh (HnK), exploding due inner incompatible light/energy like Straizo (JoJo)... but still, his defeat coreography looked like shit

 

I get they did'nt wanted spam twice the Mu no Ken punch he just did on Nec, but they could have tried something to hype up shit. Maybe go Shin SHoryuken route, never fail to look awesome lol

 

6 hours ago, Daemos said:

More or less agree here. He could hypothetically be in the vanilla cast especially if there is a big enough time skip but it would be anticlimactic after SF5. If Bison will be a canonical character in SF6 and not a what-if like Nightmare Geese, then he is best reserved for the mid or late DLC seasons like how they handled Gill and Seth in SF5.

Yeah as said i would prefer the latter option i gave, maybe wait more in terms of seasons DLC but pick a physical Bison again, that take places AFTER all important SF6 events, whatever they will be

 

Mostly because even if we have already plenty of material to build a "Ghost Bison" kind of shit, these spiritual level characters are ass and their interaction with living one "real" ones generate confusion, see people still believing that SnH fart Kage (lol) have a physical body

 

Just take looong pause in terms of seasons, wait SF6 events done their run, then show Renfield/Fang doing his scifi shit to bring him back to physical world... but in a weakened state, not ready to do anything big in SF7 beyond plan and recover/try to surpass his past self

 

6 hours ago, YagamiFire said:

I don't dislike Rashid. In fact, I have his SH Figuarts. What I hate is SF's INSANE obsession with making almost everyone a joke or a caricature in a way that undermines the stakes and narrative they're trying to create. It's so stupid.

Yeah, SFA did some silly things too (Sakura, Dan, SFA3 Blanka and Karin comes to mind), but there was more a sense of split wich characters are extremely serious from wich are there to bring fun

 

SF4 has been the first where everything felt infested by "let's get silly, is fun" mindset, and despite i'm usually an Ono defender, it's safe bet point at him for that

 

6 hours ago, Daemos said:

Wouldn't you say that historically speaking it's been about 50/50? Maybe even more joke than grit in tone? This dates back to SF2 at least.

Tbh aside some parody stuff SF2 was mostly serious

 

6 hours ago, YagamiFire said:

Then compare to SFAlpha where stuff is treated seriously. The core narratives and threat and drama is treated as legitimate. Since at least SF4, Capcom has had an obsession with undermining a lot of their own stuff and it's really annoying. Tekken is KNOWN for its joke endings but treats its CORE narrative as serious and dramatic. SF just can't seem to handle that because it veers too much into cartoon stupidity and OHHHH SOOOO WACKY moments

 

I'm not against humor or for any kind of grim-dark tone...I just wish SF didn't seem so often like it was putting itself down

This. Let's be real,  the soldiers that were supposed to bring terror to the world were specifically designed to be COMICAL instead threatening (design, colors, behaviour), and fought -bad- with punches and kicks instead try use all that immense arsenal of weapons/vehicles they have

 

If we compare the vibes to SFA Nash getting shot in the back by fucking chopter gatling, contrast should give an idea of where SFV end up

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by CESTUS III

[Darc_Requiem]

Think I found the ideal vacation destination @Daemos, place looks pretty damned cool.

 

 

[DarthEnderX]

18 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

Save one between

Noembelu for sure.  T. Hawk needs a tag team partner.

6 hours ago, YagamiFire said:

I don't dislike Rashid. In fact, I have his SH Figuarts. What I hate is SF's INSANE obsession with making almost everyone a joke or a caricature in a way that undermines the stakes and narrative they're trying to create. It's so stupid.

Completely disagree.  I enjoyed the hell out of ASF's crazy anime tone.  It's way more fun than MK9+'s melodramatic attempts at seriousness.

[ShockDingo]

At the end of the day, despite enjoying some lighter hearted elements, I can agree there was too much of it. I do hope SF6 doesn't over correct and make everything deadly serious, I wouldn't mind things shifting back to serious with some humour and not overtly goofy.

 

I really wanted the Shadaloo troopers to be more serious, I could understand a gag with one or two in a scene, but too many of the blue suited guys were the goof squad in what should have been Shadaloo's swansong spectacular.  I also agree about the Shadaloo stage - I don't mind background antics, but that one should have been serious - have signs of chaos and battle between the warring factions, or just keep the focus on the cool Shadaloo architecture.

Edited February 26, 2022 by ShockDingo

[Daemos]

43 minutes ago, ShockDingo said:

I really wanted the Shadaloo troopers to be more serious, I could understand a gag with one or two in a scene, but too many of the blue suited guys were the goof squad in what should have been Shadaloo's swansong spectacular.  I also agree about the Shadaloo stage - I don't mind background antics, but that one should have been serious - have signs of chaos and battle between the warring factions, or just keep the focus on the cool Shadaloo architecture.

It killed me that we went from the more terrifying, militaristic, and industrial motif we had in the 90s to weirdos on jetpacks. The only thing they did right about the Shadaloo HQ stage was the music (first round). If they wanted to put a bunch of soldiers it should've been strict like Bison's A2 stage.

This is Shadaloo's HQ! The only eccentricity permitted is by the Kings themselves.
 

 

[CESTUS III]

7 hours ago, ShockDingo said:

So many fight quotes refer to Urien fighting like nothing they've ever seen, even the vets, so here Rashid not only saw him in action, he saw him utterly demolish Charlie, but still grabbed his arm to stop him.

Random thought, but just to add, Urien is indeed supposed to be very powerful character (i have kinda specific idea how much, but would trigger debate lol) and beside show how much Rashid is willing to risk to help others, dimostrated a lot how good character he is with the simple action he did: does'nt try to challenge Urien or confront him like a fighter would do, he focus with whole body on stop Urien's arm and try to reason with him like  a normal person would do, like "c'mon dude, he's down you already won"

 

Btw what crack me up of that scene is Urien knowing Rashid is some kind of rich af arabian prince (even having with him his own bodyguard/servant) and still he's like "don't touch me commoner" and thinks would be ok just wreck him and his butler even if they just "hired" them lol

And Kolin being like "Lord Urien please don't kill these people" and him being like "eh whatever"

 

in ASF they did Urien better with a single scene than many other characters(poor Necalli) that had much more screen time... and his Story Mode was pretty good portrait too

 

5 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Completely disagree.  I enjoyed the hell out of ASF's crazy anime tone.  It's way more fun than MK9+'s melodramatic attempts at seriousness.

I don't have problems with light heart anime nonsense here and there neither, my problem was that SFV seem unable to realize where should be better don't be like that

 

Like i'm fine if for some reason we need pink ninjas and bizzarre robots chasing each others in silly way, but maybe the fucking Final Boss room is'nt the place to do it

 

Like again why the fuck Shadaloo army was made of bright azure comical douchebags, instead offer some thratening vibes

It's like they tried make it like Metal Slug enemy army (who still wear a more serious color scheme btw), but it does it worse and SF is'nt supposed to have same vibes where the satyrical touch is used with much more finesse to make fun of war nonsense

 

In comparision SF just come of as stupid tbh

[ShockDingo]

Urien is probably as powerful than Gill since he beat him way back when, but his emotional instability clouds his focus and Gill may be more varied with his options and so stoic thus getting the upper hand. I could be wrong.

 

I feel that with the troopers, most of them should have been like the beret guys fought in India with their sleeves rolled up. I was also hoping we got more of the Troopers that were a tribute to the movie Bison troopers, that would have been cool. The only real place I'd put the comical guys is in the fight scene where FANG is showing off how he can put psycho power in others and Vega and Rog destroy them, other than that, they should have been anything but buffoonish.

[CESTUS III]

2 hours ago, ShockDingo said:

Urien is probably as powerful than Gill since he beat him way back when, but his emotional instability clouds his focus and Gill may be more varied with his options and so stoic thus getting the upper hand. I could be wrong.

That was likely a Gill trolljob, he knew he was going to be the Emperor so he let his brother win the President fight, likely to let Urien win something too (wich made Urien even more angry lol)... the hate it's not mutual

 

We also know a loss to Chun Li, but tbh for the little we know seems he treated their fight as some sort of little game for his own amusement, not sure how much we can consider it serious fight (while Chun was motivated af, fighting to free Li Fen)... as usual SF lore drop many hints but rarely show straight things

 

About how Urien scale next to the cast, comparing him to SFV Bosses

 

In SFV Gill seem way less inclined at do the fake-loss gimmick of Sf3 days (though he joke about it in quote vs Gief) and he's able to defeat Urien (and G) without much effort, outcome feels so one-sided that Urien is left on his ass crying about being impossible for him to defeat Gill

 

I think he would have at least decent chance against Bison if he did'nt had Black Moons cheat trick, for one round motivated Nash managed to get upper hand over Bison before BM completely recharged him

But idk, Bison may be too smart for somebody so pride-driven, Urien feels classic kind of guy that would fall in a trap lol

 

Would surely think he (Urien) have greater power than Sagat, but unsure how a fight would go as japan does big deal about morals etc and new post-shadaloo Sagat started to "walk the right path", while Urien still have head full of shit... can see Capcom giving it to Sagat just to make a moral point, but if redemption gimmick is'nt involved and it's villain vs villain i say sure af money on Urien

 

Guess he wrecks SF4 Seth. Not clear to me how much SFV tranny Seth improved compared to his SF4 self- though. But considering is Seth 2.0 would not be THAT surprised to see new model being overrated trash again. For what's worth he does'nt win any story scrap in V, just have mental meltdown in the middle of his fights

 

Think he likely fuck up G. We seen G beating bunch of middle-tier people, but end up with ass on the ground as soon he faced higher level with Gill and Rose

 

[Daemos]

6 hours ago, ShockDingo said:

I feel that with the troopers, most of them should have been like the beret guys fought in India with their sleeves rolled up. I was also hoping we got more of the Troopers that were a tribute to the movie Bison troopers, that would have been cool. The only real place I'd put the comical guys is in the fight scene where FANG is showing off how he can put psycho power in others and Vega and Rog destroy them, other than that, they should have been anything but buffoonish.

As far as "eccentric" goes, I think the dolls should've been the peak, but they fucked up their designs in SF5 quite a  bit by trying to make them more unique (megaphone really?).

The only salvageable soldier designs are possibly the Gold Skulls who reminded me of Emperor Palpatines elite guard, and therefore can be allowed some semblance of eccentricity. 

Otherwise, something more serious like the berets or faceless stormtrooper-esque soldiers would've worked.

 

 

2 hours ago, CESTUS III said:

I think he would have at least decent chance against Bison if he did'nt had Black Moons cheat trick, for one round motivated Nash managed to get upper hand over Bison before BM completely recharged him

It's no more of a cheat than Gill and Urien's GMO bullshit. I also don't think that was Nash, that was Nash imbued with Gill's powers. He too had a "cheat trick".

Oro is the only top tier character not using shortcuts, he paid his dues with over a century of training. Ryu is destined to be Oro 2 but in half the time probably because he is genetically gifted.

Akuma, Bison, Gill, Seth, etc. are all using shortcuts to gain and maintain power/strength and they each have their own rationalization for the shortcut which checks out from their worldview. They pay a heavy price for it whether they know it or not. I wouldn't call it a cheat trick, it's a bargain and it either pays off or it doesn't.

Anyway, I do think that Urien and Gill are on the same level in terms of skill and power (at least they are in SF5), but Gill is smarter and far less emotionally unstable.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Daemos