The SF6 Thread: Akuma Incoming!

[Maravilla]

18 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Timestamps are in the video description

 

 

Ok thanks for the vid it cleared my question up. 

[Sonero]

 

[Darc_Requiem]

Nemo's hate for grapplers shows in his tier list. Which speaks to Manon's strength as character, Nemo think she's low tier. And he has her lower than Lily. Weird tier list but I've been a bit out of the loop as of late.

[Sonero]

 

 

[HeavensCloud]

The two characters I was most interested in prelaunch are both sitting in D tier lol.  It was the opposite in V where every character I liked ended up being top tier.  

 

Jamie is a strange one.  He's hard to put on a tier list because of his drink mechanic.  He starts the match as the worst character in the game but at level 4 he's top tier.  He's a momentum based character where some rounds really go his way and he looks OP and then others are a real struggle.  I also noticed Jamie mains don't downplay at all, they actually believe he's pretty good.  Naruo who's probably the best Jamie right now thinks he's in the upper half of the cast.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by HeavensCloud

[Volta]

Gief in A-tier? Nemo is delusional. Usually I give the pros the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these tier lists but this is just nonsense. 

[-PVL93-]

16 hours ago, HeavensCloud said:

Jamie is a strange one.  He's hard to put on a tier list because of his drink mechanic.  He starts the match as the worst character in the game but at level 4 he's top tier.  He's a momentum based character where some rounds really go his way and he looks OP and then others are a real struggle.

Jamie will jump up in tiers if Capcom changes the drinks system to be like Manon's so his levels carry over between rounds (but you have to drink one more time for the Necalli V trigger) 

 

12 hours ago, Volta said:

Gief in A-tier? Nemo is delusional. Usually I give the pros the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these tier lists but this is just nonsense. 

The Itazan ptsd still haunts the guy 

[Vhozite]

1 hour ago, -PVL93- said:

Jamie will jump up in tiers if Capcom changes the drinks system to be like Manon's so his levels carry over between rounds

Lol what? Manon medals carry over between rounds because she has to land a command grab or get a combo punish to level up...she literally cannot gain without interacting with the opponent. Jamie can drink in neutral, combo into it, and has a super art that temporarily takes him to max level. Not trying to be rude but I’m pretty sure you have no idea how good either of those characters are if you think those resources are comparable at all. 
 

Also I don’t think Jamie is the worst character in the game at 0 drinks. He’s bad, but just having a reversal, a usable drive rush, and a cancelable low already puts him at a base level of competency above the actual worst characters in the game. Even if that was true, getting just 1 drink already makes him way better by unlocking his divekick and lp target combo. 
 

Jamie has the same problem as every other resource character right now where he has make suboptimal choices to play a mini game so he can be comparable to characters who are better for much less investment. It’s one of the biggest issues with SF6 right now.

[Sonero]

I feel like people exaggerate just how hard it is to get drinks with Jamie.  You can randomly sneak them in during neutral or you get one on your first hit into rekka. You DP a jump in, get a drink, punish counter with St.HK, get two drinks.

 

please, it isn't like the man is out there talking to the Pharaoh about letting his people go.

[elliephil]

Chun top 5 let's go, we on top!!! 😂

[Maravilla]

The problem with Jamie is that I've seen way too many times, Evo included, is that he gets to his full potential when there's 10 seconds left in the round, but honestly I'm not sure what tier he's in. 

[Hecatom]

[-PVL93-]

6 hours ago, Vhozite said:

Manon medals carry over between rounds because she has to land a command grab or get a combo punish to level up...she literally cannot gain without interacting with the opponent. Jamie can drink in neutral, combo into it, and has a super art that temporarily takes him to max level. Not trying to be rude but I’m pretty sure you have no idea how good either of those characters are if you think those resources are comparable at all. 

Manon gets to delete an increasingly large part of your healthbar no matter how many rounds you're up or down vs the opponent

Jamie gets to become a decent character for one round by giving up his oki 4 times or spending 2 super bars

makes perfect sense

[elliephil]

Pls ignore my annoying banter to get people talking in the chat, but here is a funny match I played recently lol

 

 

[Vhozite]

1 hour ago, -PVL93- said:

Manon gets to delete an increasingly large part of your healthbar no matter how many rounds you're up or down vs the opponent

Jamie gets to become a decent character for one round by giving up his oki 4 times or spending 2 super bars

makes perfect sense

If you’re bad at the game just say that lol 

[Volta]

Does anyone else have a problem with dropped reversals? Not just during DR, but also on wake up or during gaps in attack strings and especially after air resets. I look at the input reader and the correct input is there, so I know I'm not fumbling the move. I never had this issue in Street Fighter V (praise its holy name, what a great game that was).

[HeavensCloud]

47 minutes ago, Volta said:

Does anyone else have a problem with dropped reversals? Not just during DR, but also on wake up or during gaps in attack strings and especially after air resets. I look at the input reader and the correct input is there, so I know I'm not fumbling the move. I never had this issue in Street Fighter V (praise its holy name, what a great game that was).

Yep, mostly on wakeup for some reason.  It's to the point I barely even try wake up level 1 because there's such a high chance it won't even come out and I'll take damage.  

[Darc_Requiem]

5 hours ago, -PVL93- said:

Manon gets to delete an increasingly large part of your healthbar no matter how many rounds you're up or down vs the opponent

Jamie gets to become a decent character for one round by giving up his oki 4 times or spending 2 super bars

makes perfect sense

Nemo. the man with the worlds worst grappler PTSD, thinks Manon is the weakest grappler in the game an low tier. He always overrates the strength of grapplers and he thinks she's weak. 

[Jocelot]

Did Nemo put AKI in the bottom tier because she's only a week old and doesn't know where to place her or does he actually believe she's really bad?

 

 

I feel like she's got more going on for her than some of the other characters but that's just me

[Vhozite]

31 minutes ago, Jocelot said:

I feel like she's got more going on for her than some of the other characters but that's just me

It’s still early but I really don’t think AKI is that good. She has some sauce of course but I think the fact that she has to win effectively two interactions to get her mini game holds her back a lot. Can’t really see her being any better than middle of the pack right now, but that assessment is just as much about the top 5 as it is about her. 
 

I know I sound like a broken record but outside of aesthetic reason I’m not picking her over JP or Guile.

[Maravilla]

6 hours ago, Hecatom said:

I forgot are the red boxes the area where she can get hit or where she can hit? 

[Maravilla]

About the dropped reversals, I swear yesterday I was telling myself I needed to set the dummy up for me to train wake up reversals, because even though my execution is awful I know im doing the right inputs,motions, at the right time. Glad it's not just me then, so yea surprised nobody else has mentioned it. Basically wake up reversals come out like 1 in 5 times for me. 

[Vhozite]

A couple things about Ken’s Jinrai I didn’t know and want to share for anyone just in case:

 

1. Jinrai works just like Dragonlash or Rashid’s Arabian Cyclone where the sound queue is significant for which version you’re looking out for. Words = danger. Ken yells “JINRAI!” for the heavy version, which is the one that is safe on block. The rest (including OD) are grunts. 
 

2. All non-heavy versions of Jinrai are unsafe (-7 at least) on block if not followed up. In this situation if you block a non-heavy Jinrai IMMEDIATELY mash your 5-7f reversal or super if you have one. This situation is reverse check mate for Ken he can’t avoid the reversal it’s absolutely 0 risk. 
 

3. Outside of drive rush blockstrings into heavy Jinrai are fake, even when cancelled from heavies. Not something you’re gonna check on reaction but if a player is repeatedly doing it just know there is a gap. 

 

4. Low is always -5 on block and overhead is always -3 regardless of version. Even if you can’t punish it is firmly your turn after blocking these attacks. 
 

5. If you REALLY don’t want to deal with Jinrai on block or you just really don’t know what to guess you can always Drive reversal the first hit. 

[Shahenzan]

7 hours ago, Jocelot said:

Did Nemo put AKI in the bottom tier because she's only a week old and doesn't know where to place her or does he actually believe she's really bad?

 

 

I feel like she's got more going on for her than some of the other characters but that's just me

On paper alone its understandable. AKI lacks a lot of the well established "good things to have" in this game. She doesn't have a cancelable low, she doesn't have a DP, she doesn't have fast (like Juri s.mp fast) plus frames, a lot of her good moves are susceptible to DI, etc. The only other character with that many weaknesses who is still considered really strong is Marisa and that's because she hits like a brick shithouse. AKI does have a projectile going for her, and a solid level 1 reversal (which is better off on defense than say Kimberly, Lily and Gief as far as widely regarded "weaker" characters). She does have high damage when her opponent is poisoned and that's not too hard for her to make happen. She also has a lot of knockdowns that leave her at big advantage to do various setups, though as far as I've seen she can't do anything super fucked up to you like the actual anime setplay characters of the game (JP with tears, Blanka doll, Kim cans).

I don't think she's bad at all, but out of the characters with her weaknesses she doesn't offer something overwhelming to help you that no one else can. If you're ok with lacking defense options to do big damage, Marisa would be better. If you're ok with not having much in the way of cancelable buttons while still being otherwise well rounded, Deejay is stupid strong and has a DP to boot. Poking with long stuff and fireballs? Dhalsim does that better. IMO AKI's kinda like a Ryu of weirdo characters where it's not so much that they're bad, just that the characters who are most similar to them seem stronger in a way where they are getting way more value out of their options. It's still early so maybe she's stronger than she seems but at this point I get the dooming lol

[Shahenzan]

13 hours ago, -PVL93- said:

Manon gets to delete an increasingly large part of your healthbar no matter how many rounds you're up or down vs the opponent

Jamie gets to become a decent character for one round by giving up his oki 4 times or spending 2 super bars

makes perfect sense

?????

Max drinks Jamie is not "decent" he is a monster lol. You let that character carry over drink levels, why wouldnt the Jamies just throw round 1 if it's looking bad, drink up, and crack out on you next round? Plenty of Jamie players already don't mind betting on SA2 at round start because of how strong it is, I aint trying to see more of that behavior lol

 

I'm not saying Jamie couldn't use some help, especially at level 0/1. But carrying over drinks round to round would be foul. Manon gets to have that system because what she does is make her existing gameplan pay out better for her. She puts you in the same guesses, the same ways, it just tips in her favor the more you get hit by it. Jamie goes from being a rekka character with some funky buttons and meh frame data to a highly mobile, well-rewarded grappler that ALSO still has his funky buttons and his rekka on roids. Surely you see why he must be restrained the way he is????

[Hecatom]

8 hours ago, Maravilla said:

I forgot are the red boxes the area where she can get hit or where she can hit? 

 

Red is where she can hit you

[purbeast]

14 hours ago, Volta said:

Does anyone else have a problem with dropped reversals? Not just during DR, but also on wake up or during gaps in attack strings and especially after air resets. I look at the input reader and the correct input is there, so I know I'm not fumbling the move. I never had this issue in Street Fighter V (praise its holy name, what a great game that was).

I do but I think it's just the timing is much stricter in SF6 than previous games.  I notice if I mess it up and eat an attack, and then REALLY focus on the timing of my next one, 9/10 times it comes out the next time. I think it's just something with the animation of the opponent coming in and attacking that causes me to miss my timing on them.  Like I am looking at my opponent rather than my own character and do my reversal based on my opponent attacking and not my character getting up.

[Volta]

1 hour ago, purbeast said:

I do but I think it's just the timing is much stricter in SF6 than previous games.  I notice if I mess it up and eat an attack, and then REALLY focus on the timing of my next one, 9/10 times it comes out the next time. I think it's just something with the animation of the opponent coming in and attacking that causes me to miss my timing on them.  Like I am looking at my opponent rather than my own character and do my reversal based on my opponent attacking and not my character getting up.

I used to do that too. I would wait for the opponent to act and then delay the up motion on the stick/controller depending on what they did, causing me to fumble the vertical ball. I practiced that extensively, and learned how to 'disassociate' my opponent's movements from my reversal timing. I got this down to a T by the time SFV came around, and I never had any issues in that game. Also, I believe both SFV and 6 have a 5-frame reversal window.

 

I'm the first to point at myself in these situations because my execution in general is garbage, but I really think there's something wonky about SF6's input system.

[Maravilla]

In Sfv I rarely if ever missed a reversal, here the timing is different or something because it comes out once in a while, bottom line in sfv I never had to worry about my opponents animations etc. it just came out, in sf6 it seems to be bugged somehow. 

[purbeast]

2 hours ago, Volta said:

I used to do that too. I would wait for the opponent to act and then delay the up motion on the stick/controller depending on what they did, causing me to fumble the vertical ball. I practiced that extensively, and learned how to 'disassociate' my opponent's movements from my reversal timing. I got this down to a T by the time SFV came around, and I never had any issues in that game. Also, I believe both SFV and 6 have a 5-frame reversal window.

 

I'm the first to point at myself in these situations because my execution in general is garbage, but I really think there's something wonky about SF6's input system.

I barely played SF5 and don't really remember the reversals in that game, but I played the shit out of SF4 and those reversals were super easy lol.

 

I play Dee Jay and still mess up my EX kicks sometimes on wakeup, for the reasons I mentioned before.  Usually I get it the second time once I realize why I screwed it up.

 

EDIT:

 

I wonder if you have the 5 frames to pull it off as you mentioned, but like if someone meaties you to be hit on your first active frame, then in theory you don't have those 5 frames to pull it off.  You have that 1 active frame.  Like I don't see how you can have the next 4 frames to "pull it off" if the meatie has already hit you.

 

But if it's someone trying to throw you or something that isn't meaty, then you'd have more active frames to actually pull it off.

 

(if that makes any sense)

Edited October 7, 2023 by purbeast

[HeavensCloud]

https://www.eventhubs.com/imagegallery/2023/oct/05/nemos-street-fighter-6-ki-match-chart/1/

 

Nemo's A.K.I. matchup chart.  He has seven 3-7 matchups and six 2-8 matchups..... There's no way she can be that bad.  

[Vhozite]

6 minutes ago, HeavensCloud said:

https://www.eventhubs.com/imagegallery/2023/oct/05/nemos-street-fighter-6-ki-match-chart/1/

 

Nemo's A.K.I. matchup chart.  He has seven 3-7 matchups and six 2-8 matchups..... There's no way she can be that bad.  

So she loses to every character besides Jamie and Dhalsim? Am I reading this correctly? 
 

No way she is that bad lol. He makes it sound like 2/3rds if the roster take her off the select screen.

[Phantom_Miria]

If half of what's shown in that list were true Nemo wouldn't have the win rate he has with A.K.I. You also wouldn't have anyone with an A.K.I. in Master and 2000 MR because it wouldn't be possible anymore under those conditions. That matchup chart isn't for A.K.I. or for any modern fighting game character, that's Twelve matchup chart from Third Strike.

 

I'm having this feeling that Nemo is very interested in using A.K.I. competitively eventually, because he has been playing and researching her a ton since she came out and even before release, but he's not going to use her seriously now because who the fuck drops JP in the current patch. But having a backup character ready is a good thing to have if your main is a likely target for nerfs, and so why not give the impression that the newcomer is hilariously weak, maybe even by taking the spotlight away from the grapplers, who all suck dick with no exception and are all massively weaker characters than A.K.I., and Nemo fucking hates grapplers so it's even better?

 

Because if A.K.I. is actually bottom tier then that means that I hit Master rank with Manon a while back, and I'm currently in Diamond 3 with A.K.I. on a 58,23% win rate, and I still have no actual clue of how the game works on a basic level. Because I can't even begin to fathom how a character who has a real Drive Rush, who is +44 after hitting her go-to combo ender that you can get from all of your cancelable normals and can go into safe jumps, frame kills into command grab or overhead, regular pressure and so on, who has a strike and projectile invincible move that side-switches getting you out of the corner, and deals a lot of damage and corner carry once you hit them in a poisoned state (and with all that oki you'll at least have a good chance to do so), is somehow bottom tier. Like, worse than the grapplers, the dudes who have to spend half of their Drive Bar to get a chance at putting you in a 50/50 and then hope they guess right or they die, and even if they guess correctly they're thrown on the other side of the room, and all to deal still less damage than A.K.I. or any normal character would have.

I also strongly doubt that poison could ever be an impediment to A.K.I. in the way Drinks are for Jamie because A.K.I. starts off with all of her tools and the poison is built to be momentum-improving mechanic, not a momentum-killing one like Drinks are.

 

The absolute worse A.K.I. can be is Ryu tier, which is regular mid-tier. I don't think she's high tier material because she has obvious weaknesses that the current top 8 of actually really strong characters (Ken, Luke, JP, Cammy, Juri, Chun-Li, DeeJay, Guile) don't really have or aren't fixed by some other overwhelming strength, but I definitely think that she can hover between mid and mid-high tier (basically between Ryu and Marisa) depending on how the character evolves.

 

But if the pros and everyone else are dead-set on claiming that A.K.I. is worse than Lily and she needs mad buffs then so be it, I sure am not going to be complaining. If they ever over-buff her in the future and she becomes top tier, and then people complain tho, I will make sure to remind them that A.K.I. used to be literally non-functional back in the day, and thus she's mid-tier at most now that, I don't know, EX Slide is unthrowable and she gets out of the corner everytime unless she's in burnout and they doubled the range of crLP so now she can do 5 or 6 lights before hit-confirming.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Phantom_Miria

[Volta]

1 hour ago, purbeast said:

I barely played SF5 and don't really remember the reversals in that game, but I played the shit out of SF4 and those reversals were super easy lol.

 

I play Dee Jay and still mess up my EX kicks sometimes on wakeup, for the reasons I mentioned before.  Usually I get it the second time once I realize why I screwed it up.

 

EDIT:

 

I wonder if you have the 5 frames to pull it off as you mentioned, but like if someone meaties you to be hit on your first active frame, then in theory you don't have those 5 frames to pull it off.  You have that 1 active frame.  Like I don't see how you can have the next 4 frames to "pull it off" if the meatie has already hit you.

 

But if it's someone trying to throw you or something that isn't meaty, then you'd have more active frames to actually pull it off.

 

(if that makes any sense)

I'm not really that knowledgeable on the technical side of SF, but I think the reversal window has an input buffer of 5 frames on the wake up animation before the active frames, i.e., you can input your reversal in the last 5 frames before you regain control of your character. I may be wrong on this though, maybe the hardcore frame data nerds can weigh in on this.  

[Doctrine_Dark]

[AriesWarlock]

 

[Vhozite]

You know Chun’s new outfit has grown on me a bit. The classic poofy shoulders are iconic but can look goofy sometimes. This look is a bit toned down and I think it compliments her.

[HeavensCloud]

1 hour ago, Phantom_Miria said:

But if the pros and everyone else are dead-set on claiming that A.K.I. is worse than Lily and she needs mad buffs then so be it, I sure am not going to be complaining. If they ever over-buff her in the future and she becomes top tier, and then people complain tho, I will make sure to remind them that A.K.I. used to be literally non-functional back in the day, and thus she's mid-tier at most now that, I don't know, EX Slide is unthrowable and she gets out of the corner everytime unless she's in burnout and they doubled the range of crLP so now she can do 5 or 6 lights before hit-confirming.

Unless something changes, I could see A.K.I., Jamie and Lily all getting overbuffed next patch.  I say that because I think they're not far off from being strong characters and the narrative around all three of them is doom and gloom.  

[CESTUS III]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:06 PM, Hecatom said:

watch her crush counter his approach with

[-PVL93-]

13 hours ago, Shahenzan said:

Surely you see why he must be restrained the way he is????

I do see why, I just don't agree with it. I'm not saying Jamie should just be in permanent necalli mode once he hits drink level 4, that'd be fucking ridiculous (plus how many characters are there that retain whatever install they have inbetween rounds across the genre?).

I'm saying between him and Manon they don't feel to be designed all that well to me, and there's a discrepancy among the resource management characters. 

Call it a hot take or whatever. 

[Volta]

If in future arguments over matchups anyone ever uses the argument of authority by invoking the pro players' opinions, just counter by saying that Nemo thinks Lily vs A.K.I. is an 8-2 matchup. 

[elliephil]

Jamie is one good buff away from being one of the best in the game. He is in Hakan mode right now. 😎 

[AriesWarlock]

 

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by AriesWarlock

[Sonero]

 

[Maravilla]

Dang man how the hell y'all reaching gold? 

[Darc_Requiem]

19 minutes ago, Maravilla said:

Dang man how the hell y'all reaching gold? 

I got their with dumb luck on Manon. I'm a fraud, just got lucky an won 7 out my 10 placement matches. I'm a Silver scrub through and through.

[Vhozite]

55 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

I got there with skill and dedication with Manon after reading Vhozite’s guide.

🙌🏽 

[Phantom_Miria]

Just got to Diamond 4 with A.K.I. by beating a Juri player (3-7 matchup for A.K.I.) who was on a winstreak.

Before that I go 1-1 with a Ken player who wins the first game but quits after losing the second one.

 

Can you believe that? Not only losing, but even quitting on an 8-2 matchup in his favour?

 

8-2! Like Honda vs Zangief in SF2!

These people are winning on character select and I still beat them!

 

Damn, I'm good!

[Hawkingbird]

3 hours ago, Maravilla said:

Dang man how the hell y'all reaching gold? 

I skip gold. I go straight to diamond

Edited October 9, 2023 by Hawkingbird

[AriesWarlock]

 

Quote

For other fighting games, GameStop also has Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid - Collector's Edition, Pokken Tournament DX for $15, The King of Fighters 15 for $20, Tekken 7 for $10, DNF Duel for $25, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: All-Star Battle R for $10 and some versions of Mortal Kombat 11.