Stage Select
Advanced Search

The Star Wars Thread: Where we discuss ALL of Star Wars

Darc_Requiem

By Darc_Requiem
in General Discussion

Recommended Posts

OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Dude doesn't respect the lore and frankly I can't stand that kind of shit. It's the biggest problem I have with Hollywood in general these days. 

 

3 hours ago, DarkSakul said:

He does not respect the audience ether, the shit he comes up with you expect out of a DC movie. 

It's interesting because when Empire came out, it was just as divisive, but now regarded as one of the best sequels of all time. 

 

I admit that the story was a bit ambitious given the starting point (or lack there of). Personally, if that was where things started, the trilogy would have had a far better setup and made a lot more sense. There is no reason to have been in the same place 30 years later after overthrowing the Empire. 

 

To this day, if TLJ had a "hallway scene" no one would have cared. It's in fact the main reason why Rogue One (an exceptionally mediocre) film is elevated to a recommended watch. Nostalgia wins 3,720:1. 

Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Just now, OPTIMUS124 said:

It's interesting because when Empire came out, it was just as divisive, but now regarded as one of the best sequels of all time.

No it wasn't. People have regurgitated this falsehood so much people actually believe it now. I need to track down the video where someone actually went back and got all the reviews for the time.

Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

No it wasn't. People have regurgitated this falsehood so much people actually believe it now. I need to track down the video where someone actually went back and got all the reviews for the time.

I'll provide a starting line:

 

https://www.starwars.com/news/critical-opinion-the-empire-strikes-back-original-reviews

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back

(Wiki has the cited reviews listed)

 

Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted (edited)

Just in case it's thought that there were edits done to reinforce the similarities in treatment, here is an edit of the Wiki page on Dec 17, 2015 (one day before the release of TFA) stating similar points on the reception of the movie at that time. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Empire_Strikes_Back&oldid=695691165

 

Art evolves over time. Star Wars is no different.  The perception of a film can change based on the lens and time it's being viewed. 

 

Even how the prequels are viewed has changed in a relatively short period of time. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by OPTIMUS124
Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted
Just now, RSG3 said:

Haha I've literally had people tell me the Prequels are great. Never heard this even once before the Disney Trilogy. 

There are great ideas in them but poorly executed. The real question is how do you take such a talented cast and turn them into cardboard cutouts. 

 

 

Link to comment
iStu X Level 18

iStu X

Posted
Posted (edited)

I feel the difference between the OT and PT is that the OT was comprised of all extremely ambitious men and women who wanted to truly create something unique and special. They were the sculptors to Lucas’ clay as it were. 
 

With the PT Lucas was just surrounded by yes men and women. None of which were sculptors willing to cut what Lucas didn’t need from the clay. Which is why the PT came out to be what they were. 
 

They were still revolutionary in the technical sense. Just not where it actually counted: Story and substance 

 

 

Edited by iStu X
Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, iStu X said:

With the PT Lucas was just surrounded by yes men and no sculptors to cut what he didn’t need from the clay. Which is why they came out to be what they were. 

giphy.gif

 

Watch some of the behind the scenes material for TPM and this is extremely clear. Lucas said jump the entire production team:

 

giphy.gif

Link to comment
iStu X Level 18

iStu X

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

Lucas has fun ideas...but not the skill to convey the right words and direction to make the cast compelling. his writing/dialog is terrible. I accept that as I fell in love with the world of Star Wars. 

Like most creatives though they still need a filter. They need someone to put their foot down and say “god damn that’s a great idea but the way you wanna do it is fucking stupid. Let’s figure out a better way” 

Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted
Just now, iStu X said:

Like most creatives though they still need a filter.

100% agree. For example, this is why The Rock is Michael Bay's best film (despite it being his first). 

 

1 minute ago, iStu X said:

They need someone to put their foot down and say “god damn that’s a great idea but the way you wanna do it is fucking stupid. Let’s figure out a better way” 

giphy.gif

 

Enter the Midi-chlorians!

Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

I'd never heard that The Empire Strikes Back was divisive until Rian Johnson tried to deflect from the reaction to The Last Jedi. It's bullshit. I didn't hear it in the 80s, 90s, 00s, or 10s. In fact I didn't hear this nonsense until 2018. I remember when he was interviewed along side Mark Hamill and when he uttered that bullshit Hamill looked at him like was insane.  This is snarky as hell but points out how utterly nonsensical that statement is. A movie that was "divisive" won the 1980 Peoples Choice Award and was re-released in 1981 and 1982 due to it's popularity. 

TLDR; Rian Johnson is full of shit. No matter how many shill outlets, that happened to give TLJ great reviews, say so. History doesn't not support their nonsense claims.

Edited by Darc_Requiem
Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted (edited)

I appreciate the person's diligence, but the point about ESB was a established fact well before the whole debacle with TLJ. That video seems to be a manifestation of confirmation bias combined with a gripe about a guy who made a movie that some people didn't like regarding a franchise that's a part of a person's identity. It only became mainstream because of the obvious comparison.   

 

Now that said, with the People's Choice Award win in 1980 and the re-releases. I wonder if the movie would have fared the same today given how algorithms and social media work today. Cinemascore (exit polling data) isn't available for movies back then, so there isn't a way to do a 1:1 comparison. 

 

If people want to learn how to compartmentalize a relationship within a fandom, look at Transformers. 

 

 

Edited by OPTIMUS124
Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, OPTIMUS124 said:

I appreciate the person's diligence, but the point about ESB was a established fact well before the whole debacle with TLJ. That video seems to be a manifestation of confirmation bias combined with a gripe about a guy who made a movie that some people didn't like regarding a franchise that's a part of a person's identity. It only became mainstream because of the obvious comparison.   

 

 

As I said, it was snarky as hell, doesn't change the fact that he's right. A divisive movie doesn't win the People's Choice Award aka fan voted award, in year released. A year filled with multiple highly regarded movies. It's nonsense. ESB isn't Star Trek TOS which was cancelled due to low ratings but gained a huge fan following in syndication after it was cancelled. It's not the prequels which actually were divisive films that have seen the opinion of them shift to a more positive one of the years. The ESB statement was something Rian Johnson pulled out of his ass to deflect from the reaction to TLJ. As a testament to Rian Johnson making it up, he actually said "I think it was divisive until the 90s." No Rian it wasn't. He didn't like ESB when it released. That doesn't override the actual consensus reaction to the film. It would be like me saying I didn't like FFVII when it released and most people didn't care for it as well. No most people, for reasons I can't comprehend, love FFVII. Just because I didn't doesn't give me the right lie to justify my opinion of the game. If you are going to "subvert expectations" be man enough to own it.  

Edited by Darc_Requiem
Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

A divisive movie doesn't win the People's Choice Award aka fan voted award, in year filled with highly regarded movies.

I can see that. Just as a note, the selections done in the 80s were results from Gallup polls, not the same how it is done today with the fandom actually providing a 1:1 vote for a property as it's done today. 

9 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

It's not the prequels which actually were divisive films that have seen the opinion of them shift to a more positive one of the years.

To be honest, I don't think we are far enough away from the flashpoint to see how this will play out. Frankly, I foresee the issue being attributed to TFA being a reset of the franchise undoing everything that ROTJ did. 

11 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Just because I didn't doesn't give me the right lie to justify my opinion of the game. If you are going to "subvert expectations" be man enough to own it.  

 In the same vein, just because there is a part of the fandom that doesn't like it means that everyone hates it. Hyperbole tends to be the order of the day with the assessment. 

 

Can I agree that fan expectations were different than the outcome; certainly. People wanted to see their old toys play the same way as they did almost 40 years ago. This is why I think things surrounding some of the more recent SW projects (e.g., The Mandalorian) work. You have things adjacent to the property but don't have adhere to the character rules/expectations because they just aren't there. As it progresses, they rope in some nostalgia to whet the palate. Once you have established confidence, then you can start branching off the beaten path because you have gained confidence from the fan-base. TLJ made some pretty risky narrative moves and given how the previous movie was an HD remaster of A New Hope, I can certainly see how it could upset people. I don't find issue with challenging the status quo, but like you said, it should been owned through and through. The Trevorrow treatment would have made a lot more sense as a conclusion. 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, OPTIMUS124 said:

To be honest, I don't think we are far enough away from the flashpoint to see how this will play out. Frankly, I foresee the issue being attributed to TFA being a reset of the franchise undoing everything that ROTJ did.

That may be, but we are far enough away from TLJ's release to see that Rian's statement is bull shit. Let's for arguments sake, say that Rian Johnson's ESB take was accurate, whatever divisions he alleged must of subsided quickly. Because you don't re-release a film in theatres two more times in 2 years because no one wants to see it. Disney has been staying away from the sequel trilogy. All of their projects with Star Wars are either in the post Prequel time line or the post Original Trilogy time line. 3 years into it's life ESB had been release in theatres 3 times. TLJ not so much. If the situations were the same, as Johnson is implying, the studio wouldn't be treating the Sequel trilogy like a hot potato.

 

7 hours ago, OPTIMUS124 said:

 In the same vein, just because there is a part of the fandom that doesn't like it means that everyone hates it. Hyperbole tends to be the order of the day with the assessment. 

That's certainly a topic for discussion but I'm talking about Rian Johnson lying to justify the reaction to his film. Screen Rant and The Mary Sue regurgitating his statement as fact doesn't help his claim. It's self serving on their part.  A lot of these "fan" blogs are anything but. Now that they aren't propped up by venture capitalists they are going under because their stances aren't as popular as they let on. However this isn't just a Star Wars thing, it's geek culture in general and I'm getting well of topic off here.

Edited by Darc_Requiem
Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Let's for arguments sake, say that Rian Johnson's ESB take was accurate, whatever divisions he alleged must of subsided quickly. Because you don't re-release a film in theatres two more times in 2 years because no one wants to see it. Disney has been staying away from the sequel trilogy. All of their projects with Star Wars are either in the post Prequel time line or the post Original Trilogy time line. 3 years into it's life ESB had been release in theatres 3 times.

I think the times are different if we are using the re-release argument. The only movie in Disney's pantheon that has been rereleased recently is Endgame. In that argument, the time to release a film on VHS took longer. I don't disagree, but it's not like re-release is necessarily a statement of quality. Also remember that despite the release numbers, it is still the lowest grossing film in the OT. Just like Endgame, it was likely done to hit a financial milestone.

 

Source:

 

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchise/fr3125251845/

 

Note- 

Avg ticket price in 1977 - $2.23

1980- 2.69

 

20 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

That's certainly a topic for discussion but I'm talking about Rian Johnson lying to justify the reaction to his film. Screen Rant and The Mary Sue regurgitating his statement as fact doesn't help his claim. It's self serving on their part.

That's a different discussion point. Rian Johnson using it to justify the reaction and the reception of the film are different arguments to be made. 

 

Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 hour ago, OPTIMUS124 said:

That's a different discussion point. Rian Johnson using it to justify the reaction and the reception of the film are different arguments to be made. 

Normally I'd agree but in this case I don't. The reception of ESB became a point of discussion because of Rian Johnson's justification. ESB being divisive traces back to his interview. It was not a point of discussion before then. He created this situation with his statement. No one was debating the reception of ESB before that point so the two issues are intertwined.

 

It's often the case these days. Someone will make a statement on the internet. A "journalist" will write an article about the statement. Then other "journalists" will write about the subject  using that article as their source and suddenly the story is everywhere. People think its true because all these outlet are saying the same thing. When you try track down the source, you'll find out that it all traces back to some random person's  statement on the internet. It's testament to modern "journalism" being utterly lacking. People run with a story without researching. It's how you get crap like "Michael Burnham is the first black person and first female to lead a Star Trek series." 

Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Normally I'd agree but in this case I don't. The reception of ESB became a point of discussion because of Rian Johnson's justification. ESB being divisive traces back to his interview. It was not a point of discussion before then. He created this situation with his statement. No one was debating the reception of ESB before that point so the two issues are intertwined.

Not debating the issue and the movie being received as a mixed bag is different.  No one debated the issue because frankly no one cared. The lens/outlook changed as the property and fans matured. Then the guy that made one movie people didn't connect with made a comparison to a film that is now considered a GOAT sequel was treated as personal sacrilege. 

 

 

Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
  • Author
Posted
21 hours ago, OPTIMUS124 said:

Not debating the issue and the movie being received as a mixed bag is different.  No one debated the issue because frankly no one cared. The lens/outlook changed as the property and fans matured. Then the guy that made one movie people didn't connect with made a comparison to a film that is now considered a GOAT sequel was treated as personal sacrilege. 

 

 

My last thoughts on this matter. No one debated the issue because there was no issue. Of course no one cared, there was nothing to care about. You can't debate something that doesn't exist. The lens and outlook on ESB never changed. Rian Johnson made it up. Point blank period.

Link to comment
OPTIMUS124 Level 16

OPTIMUS124

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Darc_Requiem said:

My last thoughts on this matter. No one debated the issue because there was no issue. Of course no one cared, there was nothing to care about. You can't debate something that doesn't exist. The lens and outlook on ESB never changed. Rian Johnson made it up. Point blank period.

I don't disagree in the fact that there was no issue. Like I said, those that cared did those that didn't went about their business. With RJ, it wouldn't have been the flex I would have gone with but it is what it is.

 

57 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

I thought the teddy bears in RotJ would have been more divisive than anything in ESB

Micro-wookies are too OP.

 

57 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

But that's maybe just because I though they were fucking stupid.

Looking back at it, they were but hey it's what the GOAT Lucas commanded. He should have gone with the concept of it being Chewbacca's home.

 

57 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

Speeder bike chase through the forest was dope af though.

Listening to that chase in 7.1 is awesome. It's also one of my favorite Luke saber  moments.

 

Edited by OPTIMUS124
Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
  • Author
Posted
On 5/29/2021 at 11:48 AM, OPTIMUS124 said:

I thought the teddy bears in RotJ would have been more divisive than anything in ESB

It was my biggest RotJ complaint. I've, since it's release, thought RotS was better than RotJ. People used to give me shit about it and I'd say "teddy bears with sling shots took out an advance military force."

Link to comment
DarkSakul Level 15

DarkSakul

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Darc_Requiem said:

People used to give me shit about it and I'd say "teddy bears with sling shots took out an advance military force."

I usually point out that the Zulu took out the British Army.
The British Army had riffles and a Gatling gun, the Zulu had spears and Wooden shields. 

 

So the Ewoks taking out Imperial Storm troopers with the help of a Rebel Cell isn't that far fetch. 

Never estimate a Strong local people who know their terrain and is fighting for their homeland. 

 

 

Edited by DarkSakul
Link to comment
Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 5/26/2021 at 9:53 PM, OPTIMUS124 said:

 

It's interesting because when Empire came out, it was just as divisive, but now regarded as one of the best sequels of all time. 

I have only heard that statement from Rian and nowhere else.

Empire back in the day was beloved, by a very wide margin.

Those who hated it were in the really smallest minority.

Edited by Hecatom
Link to comment
DarkSakul Level 15

DarkSakul

Posted
Posted
On 5/27/2021 at 1:55 AM, Chadouken said:

Man, it's gonna so fun introducing my daughter to Star Wars when she gets a little older. I just have to decide which order to watch them with her for the first time.

I prefer the Machete order 

 

It goes like this

A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, Return of the Jedi,  The Force Awakens. And that's it. 
No Episode 1, as it offers nothing to the story. Everything you need to know in Ep 1 is explain in Ep 2. 


Rouge One is also on the Watch list, but that best introduced as she is older. 

Link to comment
Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
  • Author
Posted
2 hours ago, DarkSakul said:

I usually point out that the Zulu took out the British Army.
The British Army had riffles and a Gatling gun, the Zulu had spears and Wooden shields. 

 

So the Ewoks taking out Imperial Storm troopers with the help of a Rebel Cell isn't that far fetch. 

Never estimate a Strong local people who know their terrain and is fighting for their homeland. 

 

 

The technological gap between our current technology and the Zulu isn't as far a spread as the gap between the Ewoks and Imperials. Not only that, how many Ewoks actually died. A strong local force is a formidable foe but that has it's limits. 

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
Go to topic listing
×
  • Create New...
Stage Select
select a stage