The MEGASHOCK Saloon Thread 3: Chinder Chagger Edition

[RSG3]

14 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

If you don't care Ariel is black, then you must equally must not care Nani is nearly white yes? You or anyone making this argument cannot have it both ways. 

I personally don't give one single shit about Black Ariel. Disney's "original" version wasn't remotely accurate to the book so to complain about it now like you suddenly care when you really don't is peak Ron DeSantis level social politics to me. (By you I mean the nebulous you of people who are complaining, not a specific person.)

 

I've also seen how little black girls reacted to black Ariel and it seemed worth it to me over a fictional character who wasn't remotely accurate in the first place. 

 

As For Nani I care a fuck load more theny cast an actual Hawaiian, since Nani is Hawaiiain, then I do that they made sure she was the proper shade of brown or thickness. I thought it was about representing the people and the culture, not getting my rocks off cuz she has a phat ass *shrug*

Edited April 23, 2023 by RSG3

[TheInfernoman]

16 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

I actually don't give one single shit about Black Ariel. Disney's "original" version wasn't remotely accurate to the book so to complain about it now like you suddenly care when you really don't is peak Ron DeSantis level social politics to me. (By you I mean the nebulous you of people who are complaining, kot a specific person.)

The framing of this argument is Disney's original ver was a white redhead based on the novel, NOT the novel itself. While Disney is free to change their own interpretation it's lazy because they're retelling the whole (disney) ver of the story but she's black. I don't suddenly care, I have always cared about an accurate portrayal of characters. 

 

16 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

As For Nani I care a fuck load more theny cast an actual Hawaiian, since Nani is Hawaiiain, then I do they they made sure she was rhe proper level of shade of brown or thickness. 

But Nani is still a fictional character just like Ariel.

 

Just so I am clear you care about one fictional over the other, you and you don't care about the skin color of this set of said fictional characters correct? 

 

16 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

I thought it was about representing the people and the culture, not getting my rocks off cuz she has a phat ass *shrug*

I never said big booty, you're making assumptions.

 

EDIT -

 

@3:31 they make their point that I agree with. I'm against forced representation. That's my overall point to all this race swapping/gender swapping. 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by TheInfernoman

[Reticently]

16 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

They're probably "slaver traders" no?

Nope.  During the time period Shaka was alive Capetown, South Africa was a British colony and a lot of the story is told from the point of view of white people who interacted with Shaka.  But white people aren't particularly the antagonists.

[Chadouken]

18 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

As For Nani I care a fuck load more theny cast an actual Hawaiian, since Nani is Hawaiiain

Who is Nani?

 

Anyway, I don't really give a shit about race swapping. I just like watching the people get butt mad, and laughing about it all. I'm just in it for the memes, man!

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Chadouken

[Hecatom]

1 hour ago, Chadouken said:

I always thought it was funny how the people who get so offended at race swapping are the most likely people to have a picture of a blue-eyed white Jesus hanging in their trailer.

 

Not really, since you have basically everyone in latin america also calling out race swapping and we don't have white blue eyes jesus on our walls (specially me being a}n atheist). But hey, lets keep reducing the argument to ad hominems instead of see the crux of the problem 🤷‍♂️

Edited April 23, 2023 by Hecatom

[Chadouken]

5 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

 

Not really, since you have basically everyone in latin america also calling out race swapping and we don't have white blue eyes jesus on our walls (specially me being a}n atheist). But hey, lets keep reducing the argument to ad hominems instead of see the crux of the problem 🤷‍♂️

Y'all got them Mexican Jesuses?

[AriesWarlock]

31 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

Who is Nani?

 

[HD-Man]

1 hour ago, Daemos said:

Yes because Black Panther and Cleopatra are equivalent.

 

If you didn't catch that, that was a joke/dig of how ppl always bring up race swapping Black Panther as their go-to. You lookin too deeply into that or being willingly obtuse

 

LOL at Hetacom all in my notifications. I care nothin about your white fragility. My bad Mexican fragility

Edited April 23, 2023 by HD-Man

[Hecatom]

Just now, Chadouken said:

Y'all got them Mexican Jesuses?

 

Yes, well, sort of.

Depends of the branch of Christianity and the time the art was made.

Most Catholic churches have a more accurate depiction of what Jesus would have looked, even from the colony era you find a lot of art on that vein.

Tanned/Dark skin, brown/black eyes.

Even the white variation has brown eyes or honey eyes.

 

The outliers are the protestant churches since they can be subsisdiaries of usa churches so they have whatever they depict him, unless they do more than just translate the reading material from english and use the 50's aesthetic most of those books have.

For example Mormons and Jehovah witnesses at times have a blue eyes Jesus, but it depends.

 

TBH, this is something every culture does.

Is cultural and social osmosis, and while it has been normalized now to mock white people for doing it, is something that is just human nature

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hecatom]

Just now, HD-Man said:

If you didn't catch that, that was a joke/dig of how ppl always bring up race swapping Black Panther as their go-to. You lookin too deeply into that or being willingly obtuse

 

LOL at Hetacom all in my notifications. I care nothin about your white fragility

 

LMAO, I am not white, but mmkay

Just so you know, I am a mestizo , a mix of spaniard (and all the mix that implies since the region my family comes from is mixed with muslims as well), native, black and jewish.

 

Also, you care enough to make a fuzz about 2 or 3 fucking disagrees, lmao, talk about fragility.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Hecatom

[RSG3]

48 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

The framing of this argument is Disney's original ver was a white redhead based on the novel, NOT the novel itself. While Disney is free to change their own interpretation it's lazy because they're retelling the whole (disney) ver of the story but she's black. I don't suddenly care, I have always cared about an accurate portrayal of characters. 

 

I mean...it's not for you anyway. 

 

48 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

But Nani is still a fictional character just like Ariel

So what?

 

48 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

Just so I am clear you care about one fictional over the other, you and you don't care about the skin color of this set of said fictional characters correct? 

I don't care about this particular Ariels skin color, no,  and think casting an actual Hawaiian is more important then her being the proper brown color or the proper level of thickness.  

 

48 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

I never said big booty, you're making assumptions.

And I said I wasn't talking about you or what you said specifically. You're not the only person I've seen say she isn't thick enough and they are talking about her ass. 

Edited April 23, 2023 by RSG3

[HD-Man]

1 minute ago, Hecatom said:

 

LMAO, I am not white, but mmkay

Just so you know, I am a mestizo , a mix of spaniard (and all the mix that implies since the region my family comes from is mixed with muslims as well), native, black and jewish.

 

Also, you care enough to make a fuzz about 2 or 3 fucking disagrees, lmao, talk about 

Im half trolling. And I said your name so you'd be a bit more direct instead being passive aggressively on the sidelines negging stuff. If im not mistaken, you've done this many times before 🤷🏾‍♂️

[Hecatom]

Just now, HD-Man said:

Im half trolling. And I said your name so you'd be a bit more direct instead being passive aggressively on the sidelines negging stuff. If im not mistaken, you've done this many times before 🤷🏾‍♂️

 

I am using the tools I am given, If I feel I need to add something, I do it, If not it can be because I don't have time, or others have done it already, or just disagreeing is enough in my eyes.

Is not being passive agressive.

Or would you say the same when I press the agree/like buttons on many post in a row?

No right?

 

[HD-Man]

4 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

 

I am using the tools I am given, If I feel I need to add something, I do it, If not it can be because I don't have time, or others have done it already, or just disagreeing is enough in my eyes.

Is not being passive agressive.

Or would you say the same when I press the agree/like buttons on many post in a row?

No right?

 

If this was your first time, I probably wouldn't consider it passive aggressive and just continued on about my busines, but since you've previously done it in race based discourse (and since I'm incredibly bored at work), I figured I'd direct address you this time. 

 

But I'll leave you be since we won't see eye to eye on this topic, so have at it🤷🏾‍♂️

Edited April 23, 2023 by HD-Man

[TheInfernoman]

@RSG3Rather than quote that whole block, even if something is not for me, I can still have an opinion on it, same as how you form many opinions on things that will never you. Arent you sharing your opinion about my opinion about a mythical fish? I don't care specifically for the story of The Little Mermaid, but rather I DO care about what she is representing which is a perpetual need to promote white stories with a coat of minority paint. I still stand by that I am all for original black/hispanic/asian/middle eastern/indian/every other minority stories/characters. What is wrong with my preference for that vs race swapping? I just want to hold storytelling to a higher standard. To accept an adaptation based on a culturally white European and race swap/gender swap characters is lazy and takes away from promoting original stories. Heck I'll stand by that for ANY swapping combo. 

 

Disney had a big miss with The Little Mermaid. They actually had a character created years ago they could have built upon. 

 

https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Gabriella

 

 Sorry but I am passionate about this as a guy who went to college for animation. Animation is storytelling via pictures, I learned how writing a good character is just as important as designing the character. Saying it doesn't matter is disingenuous. 

[Chadouken]

45 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

TBH, this is something every culture does.

You forgot one.

 

[Hecatom]

37 minutes ago, HD-Man said:

If this was your first time, I probably wouldn't consider it passive aggressive and just continued on about my busines, but since you've previously done it in race based discourse (and since I'm incredibly bored at work), I figured I'd direct address you this time. 

 

But I'll leave you be since we won't see eye to eye on this topic, so have at it🤷🏾‍♂️

 

I am pretty sure you and me agree on more things that what we disagree.

Race swapping being one of those cases where is not the case.

Since for me, is lazy, patronizing and even insulting.

 

It would be one thing if it happened that it was that the actor/actress in question is the best for the part (Samuel L Jackson as Fury for example) but when is for "representation" is dumb as fuck.

It only serves to be polarizing and turn for the worse any actual racial issues conversation.

 

Notice how there is a difference in reception between making Ariel black, and making A-Train (The Boys) Black.

If they really wanted to elevate black people and tell a mermaid story, why not make a movie about A Song Below Water, Skin of the Sea, Mother of the Sea, etc

Edited April 24, 2023 by Hecatom

[Hecatom]

Just now, Chadouken said:

You forgot one.

 

 

That one is from a movie right?

[HD-Man]

5 minutes ago, Chadouken said:

You forgot one.

 

No love for Mecha Jesus?

https://imgur.com/a/BUzVy6t

[Chadouken]

1 minute ago, Hecatom said:

 

That one is from a movie right?

Yeah dude, Dogma 😂

[Hecatom]

Just now, TheInfernoman said:

@RSG3Rather than quote that whole block, even if something is not for me, I can still have an opinion on it, same as how you form many opinions on things that will never you. Arent you sharing your opinion about my opinion about a mythical fish? I don't care specifically for the story of The Little Mermaid, but rather I DO care about what she is representing which is a perpetual need to promote white stories with a coat of minority paint. I still stand by that I am all for original black/hispanic/asian/middle eastern/indian/every other minority stories/characters. What is wrong with my preference for that vs race swapping? I just want to hold storytelling to a higher standard. To accept an adaptation based on a culturally white European and race swap/gender swap characters is lazy and takes away from promoting original stories. Heck I'll stand by that for ANY swapping combo. 

 

Disney had a big miss with The Little Mermaid. They actually had a character created years ago they could have built upon. 

 

https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Gabriella

 

 Sorry but I am passionate about this as a guy who went to college for animation. Animation is storytelling via pictures, I learned how writing a good character is just as important as designing the character. Saying it doesn't matter is disingenuous. 

 

One of the reasons why Encanto felt as a  genuine attempt of representation around here is that the more broad cultural commonalities that are common across most latin american countries felt very authentic.

Like family dynamics, mannerism, micro expressions, like Mirabel using her mouth to point out something, etc, etc.

Not every latin american is afro descendant, but it still had a lot of stuff that felt like something you see a family member will do.

 

Nothing like that would be possible, or at least will be more hard to come across to do, if it was one of the many lazy race swapping shit studios try to pass as something to be celebrated.

[Hecatom]

Just now, Chadouken said:

Yeah dude, Dogma 😂

Never watched it, but that Pic is so widely used around here on whatsapp groups, lol.

[Chadouken]

Does Blariel have a dad in the new Little Mermaid movie?

[HD-Man]

9 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

 

I am pretty sure you and me agree on more things that what we disagree.

Race swapping being one of those.

Since for me, is lazy, patronizing and even insulting.

 

It would be one thing if it happened that it was that the actor/actress in question is the best for the part (Samuel L Jackson as Fury for example) but when is for "representation" is dumb as fuck.

It only serves to be polarizing and turn for the worse any actual racial issues conversation.

 

Notice how there is a difference in reception between making Ariel black, and making A-Train (The Boys) Black.

If they really wanted to elevate black people and tell a mermaid story, why not make a movie about A Song Below Water, Skin of the Sea, Mother of the Sea, etc

Actually we'd disagree on this too, especially in works of fiction. Race swaps don't bother me in that area if race isn't a major, central component to the character

 

Like I wouldnt race swap Luke Cage or Iron Fist Danny Rand. I wouldn't make Iron Fist Asian since part of his deal is being white thus making him a fish out of water 

 

Also i dont think there is an agenda. I think ppl just have this irrational fear of being replaced and havent come to terms with diversity. Nobody is replacing anybody and having ppl from a different background doesnt belittle yours.

 

Everyone deserves to have their perspective told no matter race, creed, religion or sexual orientation. If changing any of those things messes up the foundation of a character  then thats where I'd defintely have an issue

[RSG3]

45 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

Rather than quote that whole block, even if something is not for me, I can still have an opinion on it, same as how you form many opinions on things that will never you.

Will never what me? Interest me? I mean if it doesn't interest me I probably won't form a very strong opinion of it, if one at all. I don't dwell on things not for me, it's why I don't go on Po level rants about Bethesda, their shit isn't for me. 

45 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

Arent you sharing your opinion about my opinion about a mythical fish?

Yea? Not sure the revelance. The movie may not be for me but the greater conversation around it is for the adults in the room...

 

45 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

I don't care specifically for the story of The Little Mermaid, but rather I DO care about what she is representing which is a perpetual need to promote white stories with a coat of minority paint.

Is it tho, or did they just cast black people to appeal to a black demographic? Disney's version is hardly a "white story." What does that even mean? What is a white story? The Hans Chrisitan Anderson story is a Danish story, not a white story. The Disney version is a very much changed for a young demographic, but considering it's heavy Carribian music, themes and casting I struggle to call it exclusively a "White story." It pulls from multiple cultural influences so i can't agree with you here at all. Disney's version is a melting pot of cultures and people's. Its not a "white story." 

 

45 minutes ago, TheInfernoman said:

Saying it doesn't matter is disingenuous. 

Good thing thats another thing I never said. It's just a question of what about the story has changed by making her black? I also care about animation, and telling stories through pictures, but what about the story being told here, through the pictures, is changed by making her skin a darker color? Like far as I can tell the Disney version of The Little Mermaid is an American tale, it's so different from its source material over all that is basically an original story, so it's ours. What's wrong with it representing the people who live here? What about the story changes just because the character is representing a slightly different group of people who also live here? It's not like Disney Ariels skin color is tied to her cultural heritage or anything. She's more tied to Americans by her obsession with things and experiences then anything else. 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by RSG3

[Hecatom]

5 minutes ago, HD-Man said:

Actually we'd disagree on this too, especially in works of fiction.

 

 

It is what I am saying, We disagree on this.

[Chadouken]

19 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

 

It is what I am saying, We disagree on this.

No, I think you guys disagree about that.

[MillionX]

ha, see how much fun that topic is?  It's awesome.  

 

...but it is bizarre to me that we've reached this odd point where so many people supposedly no longer care about a character being visually accurate at all...especially with characters that are mainly known from visual mediums like comics and cartoons.....as if decades of art and animation are irrelevant, because I guess some people want all the characters to look like them or something.  To me that's strange and wrong... and worth nothing more than being something obviously absurd to laugh at....and it reaches an even deeper level of absurdity when you're talking about real people like Anne Boleyn and Cleopatra.  Hopefully they keep doing this again and again for more laughs... which also exposes how ridiculous everything is as more people try to desperately keep defending it.

[HD-Man]

For the record, i have a totally different reason for not being into the new Little Mermaid than her race. The movie kinda looks..... dry and souless, its just not aesthetically pleasing to me

 

i feel this way about alot of other unnecessary  Disney remakes, they should stop milking old properties and take some more risks. That said, Hope it turns out fine tho, cuz I love Halle and Chloe Bailey in general for "reasons" 😂

[Jion_Wansu]

10 hours ago, Reticently said:

My kids were watching Transformers Rescue Bots on Netflix the other day, and the human boy character was relating the story of John Henry to the Autobots, and the picture  of John Henry in the book they showed was a white guy.

 

It's particularly funny because LeVar Burton (Reading Rainbow/Kunta Kinte) is a major voice actor on that show.

 

When I first saw Reading Rainbow I was like. Wait a minute, that guy looks familiar. Oh yeah, he's on Star Trek. Shocked me at the time (early 1990s).

 

 

He was also on Mr. Rogers.

 

 

 

 

Regarding John Henry and so forth. Wikipedia also states that he's a legend/folklore. Come to think of it.

 

Does everyone believe that these other "legends" were real people too, such as Paul Bunyan, Achilles from Troy, etc.

[RSG3]

15 minutes ago, HD-Man said:

For the record, i have a totally different reason for not being into the new Little Mermaid than her race. The movie kinda looks..... dry and souless, its just not aesthetically pleasing to me

Heh I did laugh when I saw the trailer before Mario and they showed Sabastian as just a normal ass king crab, I can only imagine the nightmares little kids would get seeing a giant underwater alien spider head crab thing lmao. 

 

Like the real issue that movies gonna have isn't skin color, it's over half its "adorable" cast being nightmare fuel now because the Oceans a freaky fucking place lol. 

[AriesWarlock]

[HD-Man]

There's this old movie that alot of ppl didnt like apparently but I thought was really neat even if dated. It was called Logan's Run, always thought that would be a cool movie to remake if done right. Some of the themes in it are still relevant today

 

Im probably the only person around thats watched it tho so it's probably never gettin a remake lol

[Darc_Requiem]

3 hours ago, RSG3 said:

 

 

Where is the photo of his brother White Wolf would be made completely pointless by T'Challa being white? Will they call him Black Wolf and run into the same issues that occurred when people thought Black Hermione was a good idea? Because race swapping a character that was mocked for being a "mud blood" sounds like a great idea that isn't problematic at all 👀

[Sonichuman]

Speaking of using woke incorrectly...

Please note that I'm not on Leguizamo's side on this cause I think that comment he made about the movie cast not being diverse enough was dumb. 

[Chadouken]

8 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Where is the photo of his brother White Wolf would be made completely pointless by T'Challa being white? Will they call him Black Wolf and run into the same issues that occurred when people thought Black Hermione was a good idea? Because race swapping a character that was mocked for being a "mud blood" sounds like a great idea that isn't problematic at all 👀

I remember when Idris played Roland in The Dark Tower and, despite him being the best part of that terrible movie, it was a bad casting decision to make Roland black. In the second novel, The Drawing of the Three, there is a lot of racial tension between him and Detta. Of course, they left her out of the movie completely and it sucked so bad I doubt there will be a sequel.

[RSG3]

13 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Where is the photo of his brother White Wolf would be made completely pointless by T'Challa being white? Will they call him Black Wolf and run into the same issues that occurred when people thought Black Hermione was a good idea? Because race swapping a character that was mocked for being a "mud blood" sounds like a great idea that isn't problematic at all 👀

What? This picture is a troll my dude lol. 

[Hecatom]

Just now, Sonichuman said:

Speaking of using woke incorrectly...

Please note that I'm not on Leguizamo's side on this cause I think that comment he made about the movie cast not being diverse enough was dumb. 

 

This is speculation from my part, but the woke part is probably aimed at the rumor floating around about Nintendo striking down a lot of shit on the early process on the early drafts.

Where Peach supposedly came across as the typical girl boss who put down Mario and other shit like that.

 

Supposedly, the product we have now differ a lot with what Illumination wanted to do.

[HD-Man]

Leguizamo aint really got a dog in the fight. He was a Columbian playing an Italian in the original Mario movie. Even if you excuse his ethicity, he didn't even remotely look or act like the actual character 🤣

[DangerousJ]

Being the guy who fixes John Wick's car doesn't pay enough.

 

Nigga gotta eat.

[Sonichuman]

34 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

 

This is speculation from my part, but the woke part is probably aimed at the rumor floating around about Nintendo striking down a lot of shit on the early process on the early drafts.

Where Peach supposedly came across as the typical girl boss who put down Mario and other shit like that.

 

Supposedly, the product we have now differ a lot with what Illumination wanted to do.

This doesn't seem like that because this guy's post makes no mention of Peach anywhere in it and it firmly pointed at Mario & Luigi not being played by anybody other than white people. 

 

Also really haven't seen any rumors floating around about that, I've only seen what Miyamoto came out and officially said which was he's always wanted to make Peach a stronger character in the beginning.  The only thing I've seen rumor or leak wise about this movie was that Toadsworth and Toadette were actually going to be in the movie and got cut.  There's an actual smoking gun on that. 

 

Personally I think both the "woke and anti woke" crowds got played for dumb fools when it came to Peach in this movie because she was both way more competent in the movie and she also still got captured.  Both crowds want to see what they want out of that character and ever since Super Mario RPG (or earlier if you want to count the Super Mario World comic that was ran in Nintendo Power or if you want to go even slightly further she was also adventuring with the Bros and Toad during Super Show) she's always had that going for her.   The whole wedding set piece actually reminds me of Peach from the comic specifically to be honest.

[Darc_Requiem]

1 hour ago, RSG3 said:

What? This picture is a troll my dude lol. 

Anytime I end a post with "👀", I'm trolling.

[Lantis]

46 minutes ago, HD-Man said:

Leguizamo aint really got a dog in the fight. He was a Columbian playing an Italian in the original Mario movie. Even if you excuse his ethicity, he didn't even remotely look or act like the actual character 🤣

Not to mention that he acted alongside Bob Hoskins, who is also pretty far from being Italian himself 😂

 

By that same token, Lou Albano was probably the perfect guy to play Mario, as he was actually born in Italy AND grew up in NY, so he literally checked all the boxes

[RSG3]

And I'm gonna put myself out there and say Lou did a pretty good job honestly. Same for the guy who played Luigi. 

[axeman61]

I don't think this Michael Jackson reaction clip will ever get old (when used right). I only found out about it last week, but it's made me cackle enough to be top 10.

[RSG3]

If Actors built an "Avengers" team out of the people they've played.....who would be the unstoppable team? 

 

Hugo Weavings got Agent Smith, Elrond, Megatron, and V. I'm leaving out Red Skull because it's MCU Red Skull specifically. 

[Sonichuman]

9 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

If Actors built an "Avengers" team out of the people they've played.....who would be the unstoppable team? 

 

Hugo Weavings got Agent Smith, Elrond, Megatron, and V. I'm leaving out Red Skull because it's MCU Red Skull specifically. 

Are we just counting live action or we including voice acting roles? 

 

Edit: probably a dumb question for clarification since you put Megatron in Hugo's team but that movie is also "live action"  I guess what I just say is are we going to count animated VA roles.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Sonichuman

[RSG3]

4 minutes ago, Sonichuman said:

Are we just counting live action or we including voice acting roles?

Man I was debating...that really opens things up to some really dumb shit...but I think I'd be cool with it if we count that version of the character. Like how I left MCU Red Skull off my list of Hugos roles. He gets MCU Red Skull but not all of Red Skull, right? 

Edited April 24, 2023 by RSG3

[HD-Man]

Why her tittys unified?  Looks weird as fuck

 

[RSG3]

Fuckin...Uni-tit?

Edited April 24, 2023 by RSG3