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The Guilty Gear general: Getting Wildly Assaulted in the Keyhole

ZioSerpe

By ZioSerpe
in Fighting Game Discussion

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted (edited)

GGs @Vhozite.   That was a great fight.  I like to play Ky at a distance and Nago is one of the few cast members where that doesn't work out so well.  I've never seen someone punish Ky's Fondue Arc (electric sword down-swipe) since its pushback usually makes it safe.   OTOH I learned the usefulness of Ky's Fondue Kick as a way to get in.  Never used that move much before.  On our last fight or so I learned the command normal Toward+Jab apparently beats Nago's sword stab (stand Slash?). 

 

I learned that Ky's dragon install has both startup -- you killed me three times during it with your projectile -- as well as cooldown  -- you tagged me once.  When you saw me whiffing crouch Fierce as distance, that was me trying to use the move.  It requires "low health" so I'm never sure if its available or not. 

 

I got a bit predictable with the jump in airdash and you swatted it out of the air so many times (with HS?) that I know I have a problem. 🙂  

 

Good projectile usage on your part.  I can't seem to hit it; is that possible? It is with Chipp's.  But yeah, it kept me on my toes.  

 

Great job baiting out my bursts.  Nago has the perfect range to stand outside of burst range.  

 

Nago's a bit easier to AA since his air mobility after he jumps is so limited.  Unfortunately Ky's fireballs don't do enough damage to make fb zoning a real thing.  On the flipside I need to use Ky's double jump more to throw off your AAs. 

 

Does Nago's regular sword attacks do chip damage?  I seem to think I blocked a couple of things that killed me. 

 

Edited by Pair of Rooks
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Vhozite Level 15

Vhozite

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Pair of Rooks said:

GGs @Vhozite.   That was a great fight.  I like to play Ky at a distance and Nago is one of the few cast members where that doesn't work out so well.  I've never seen someone punish Ky's Fondue Arc (electric sword down-swipe) since its pushback usually makes it safe.   OTOH I learned the usefulness of Ky's Fondue Kick as a way to get in.  Never used that move much before.  Also on our last fight or so I learned the command normal Toward+Jab apparently beats Nago's sword stab (stand Slash?). 

 

I also learned that Ky's dragon install has both startup -- you killed me three times during it with your projectile -- as well as cooldown  -- you tagged me once.  When you saw me whiffing crouch Fierce as distance, that was me trying to use the move.  It requires "low health" so I'm never sure if its available or not. 

 

I got a bit predictable with the jump in airdash and you swatted it out of the air so many times (with HS?) that I know I have a problem. 🙂  

 

Good projectile usage on your part.  I can't seem to hit it; is that possible? It is with Chipp's.  But yeah, it kept me on my toes.  

 

Also great job baiting out my bursts.  Nago has the perfect range to stand outside of burst range.  

 

Nago's a bit easier to AA since his air mobility after he jumps is so limited.  Unfortunately Ky's fireballs don't do enough damage to make fb zoning a real thing.  On the flipside I need to use Ky's double jump more to throw off your AAs. 

 

Does Nago's regular sword attacks do chip damage?  I seem to think I blocked a couple of things that killed me. 

 


Spoilered for length
 

Spoiler

 

See I think you did well zoning me when you stuck to it but a lot of times you got impatient and opted to start yoloing instead. In fact I think the first match you won by zoning me with Dragon Install edges. Nago has a couple tools to deal with projectiles (clone, his great super jump, big boy buttons), but at the end of the day he is still big and slow. 


Towards jab (6P) is the universal anti-air button with upper body invincibility. I haven’t played with it much other than for AA’s but if it’s anything like in Xrd you can time it to counter some of the higher level ground attacks.

 

Yeah I don’t know anything about Dragon Install but I assumed that raw activation had to be unsafe. Was just a matter of finding something that could punish it. I was having a lot of trouble dealing with it so I had to learn quickly to to blow up the activation.

 

Yeah a lot of your air dashes were really predictable, but also that button (2HS) just has an enormous hitbox and you weren’t doing anything to punish it consistently.  Most of the time I was hitting it just to hit it lol. It’s startup is pretty slow though so Nago can’t use it on reaction without begging for a counterhit. 

 

Yeah his projectile is really good. Dust loop says it cancels 1 hit projectiles but it somehow seems a bit better than that. He can’t abuse it due to blood rage but it’s great for keeping people honest at a range where he can’t do much else to contest. AFAIK his sword button don’t chip they just reach far and do good damage. 
 

I will say that I’m starting to feel better about Nago. However I do stand by my opinion that his (HS) buttons need to be faster. They get faster with blood rage levels but never enough for them to stop being COUNTER bait.

 

 

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Vhozite said:

See I think you did well zoning me when you stuck to it but a lot of times you got impatient and opted to start yoloing instead

I committed to it for a few rounds here and there, but it's like Chun trying to win SFV with pokes. I'm "winning" the whole match except for the victory screen.  Ky can't even bullet-hell Pot. Install helps but then I'm literally a jump-in from death. 

 

I felt safest just outside Nago's jab range, where I could just bully the stuffing out of him. But getting there without a frame disadvantage was... a fun little problem that Arc kick helped with.

 

2 hours ago, Vhozite said:

(2HS) just has an enormous hitbox and you weren’t doing anything to punish it consistently

Ky can't bait it well. He has nothing fast that strikes beneath him nor any way to cut short his jump like a divekick or that Millia move. Only HS and air fireball strike beneath, and every time 2HS hit him when he was on Nago's head was a HS in its long startup. At tipper range, it was my air backdash. 

 

I can see how 2HS would be bad in a lot of MUs though.

 

Edited by Pair of Rooks
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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think I'm done with Mission mode for now. Just over 80% with the last three map locations and my execution or reactions aren't up to par for the rest.

 

@Reticentlydid you ever find a trick for that Axl command grab? 

 

Training mode things: 

 

It allows setting your own health to 0 - 100, which is confusing cause health goes beyond 100.   Append a % sign or use real numbers pls!

 

Ky's eligible for Dragon Install at 30%, which is an annoying smidge less than where the burst gauge starts. (Good luck seeing the red lightning on Ky in a match.)

 

I'm unsure if DI is actually QCBx2, per the display input matching it but it not triggering. Weird leniency rules maybe??

 

The first few frames of startup of normals can cancel into Faultless Defense. If you are in those first few frames during super flash, then you can cancel your normal into Barrier Guard to save yourself.

 

CH increases the hitstun of every subsequent hit in the combo, in proportion to the strength of the CHing button.

 

Option select: during a Strong Counter Hit, input additional commands during the zoom-in and slowdown. They will override the previous ones. 

Example  5H > 236S ~ 214K
On block & hit will poke xx fireball.
On CH will poke xx arc kick.

 

3f input buffer

2f startup on throws

5f throw-invincible on wake-up

5f throw-tech window

3f landing can't block (unless empty jump)

6f landing can't move

Always can attack when landing except for certain attacks like Ky air fireball.

 

2 command throws at the same time both whiff for a frame. Longer active frames win.

 

Throw cannot be done via diagonal directions

 

Air throws tend to have more range above the thrower. Better to AA with.

 

Edited by Pair of Rooks
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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

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Posted

Yeah the biggest thing in my experience is that you can end up in a dolphin vortex (not vortex in the traditional FG term sense). It's not at all real but it is a really awkward situation that can quickly death spiral if you make a couple of wrong moves.

 

Add onto that her j.H I think it is and her j.2H (or whatever her anchor drop air move is)  and she has a lot of good approach options. 

 

The one big thing about her is that she has no reversal outside of OD so if you get on her you can (and should) maul her. Wake up OD is definitely going to be on the table at some point so you have to play around it.

 

I think Nago can probably play it sort of like Ram can with his big buttons. Those can also be a curse though because you need to be really careful in the post S Dolphin situation. Sometimes those slower longer ranged buttons just get you whacked.

 

Also more general thoughts after I finish cooking.

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Alkipot Level 1

Alkipot

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Vhozite said:

Y’all making me real scared to run into May online lol. I fought one yesterday but he was even greener than I was so I won a couple and promptly got kicked out of the tower. 

I apologize in advance to anyone who plays my May. She’s super oppressive especially in the corner. Streamed and won like 95% of my matches, made it to heaven floor but not vip yet.

 

IMO May’s toughest matchups are other gorillas and Axl. The only guy that gave me issue was aPot player and I took that set 10-2 😵

 

 

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HeavensCloud Level 13

HeavensCloud

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Hawkingbird said:

I need to know how to properly defend in this game. Just blocking will just get you killed. FG just isn't enough for some situations. I tend to fall back on yellow RC when I have it as imo the best defensive mechanic the game gives you. It sucks when you use it at the wrong time. 

Yellow RC seems extremely important.  You can use it as a sort of Vreversal in order to save the Burst for later.  

 

My issue is getting a blue RC when I want a yellow, and getting a purple when I want a red lol.

Edited by HeavensCloud
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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

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Posted
11 hours ago, Pair of Rooks said:

Air throws tend to have more range above the thrower. Better to AA with.

That is something I knew from +R that I let myself forget for this game. You want the opponent to be above you when going for air throws if you can help it. I try to be too pre-emptive/aggressive with it and it never works.

 

Also pro tip from watching Ryan Hunter's channel: if you find you hit the diagonals on air throw attempts (can be easy to do in snap situations) hit the opposite direction to do the throw. Ex. on a forward jump to intercept you'd hit 4D. Helps to get the clean input consistently.

 

Double also I double checked: Nago's sword normals actually do very respectable chip when he is kirked out. What I didn't realize is that they always do a little bit of chip regardless. So yeah those low life situations against him are pretty dangerous.

 

Triple also this seems useful:

 

 

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted (edited)

I just noticed this on the character select screen: in the slideout holding the character's name and archtype is a diagram of "you" and three letters.  Those are letter grades for how good that character is at close, mid, and far range.  

 

Kind of obvious in retrospect but I never really looked closely at it before. 

 

EDIT:  if I-No misses her super and you airdash behind her, you're still fucked.  The projectiles of Megalomania will U-turn and hit full-screen behind her.   😠

Edited by Pair of Rooks
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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

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Posted

If you look closely at May's you can make out that hers are just two skulls and a dolphin.

 

@AlkipotI checked out the VOD of your last stream. Your May is a fucking beast. Keep on rollin' em. 

 

For anyone trying to figure out May that is a pretty good stream to watch to see that danger zone I was talking about. The Ky players just kept getting eaten alive by it (in fairness I legit don't know what his options are there). That scenario is something I think we're all going to have to get really familiar with being in and dealing with.

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Vhozite Level 15

Vhozite

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Posted
55 minutes ago, Pair of Rooks said:

Cancel the poke into other pokes or fireball.  Problem solved.

 

That sounds like a risky strategy. Stun edges have double digit frame start-up and are also really minus unless you let them travel. 
 

Nago’s buttons are the same way. Lots of range and good pushback but looking purely at frames all the really big shit is super minus on block. Like 6HS (big downward slash) and 2HS (gargantuan AA button) are both -17 on block.

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Vhozite said:

That sounds like a risky strategy. Stun edges have double digit frame start-up and are also really minus unless you let them travel. 

It's Strive's low forward xx hadoken.  It's actually the most reliable part of Ky's kit I've found so far.  The fb doesn't necessarily combo from a long poke, but I think there's only a couple of characters whose jumps go vertical fast enough to slip through the window. Assuming I've poked the person not an extended limb ofc.  The 11f startup is less of a problem than the 54 total frames of the move. This is why I'm skeptical when you guys tell me to zone more with Ky.  Yeah you have to play Super Mario Bros for a hot second but then I eat a jump-in and cry.  

 

Speaking of crying, GGs @GetTheTables!   I do not have an answer to your Ram.  With Nago I found a plan, just had trouble executing it.  I don't even have that for Ram.  And then your reactions I found scary and intimidating.  Add in your solid punishes and Ram's big mid-range buttons and I'm 😭.  But we beat the lobby boss!  

 

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GetTheTables Level 8

GetTheTables

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Pair of Rooks said:

Speaking of crying, GGs @GetTheTables!   I do not have an answer to your Ram.  With Nago I found a plan, just had trouble executing it.  I don't even have that for Ram.  And then your reactions I found scary and intimidating.  Add in your solid punishes and Ram's big mid-range buttons and I'm 😭.  But we beat the lobby boss!  

 

GGs man, Ram is a dick. Part of it is just exposure though. I think as you get more comfortable in this game it will feel better. I instantly feel a lot worse in matches where my opponent is more mobile.

 

As I mentioned I think you had the right idea with the projectiles. Like it is definitely scary - Ram can counter poke them from forever away and IAD'ing over it can be bad - but you need something to not let me just rule the ground with swords. Plus if you get me into the air you can start AA'ing me instead of vice versa. Its not easy but from the other side that felt worse for me than just us having a sword duel.

 

Speaking of that you also had the right idea with trying to footsie around the swords. Again anything to keep me adjusting space, maybe getting closer which makes IAD more of a threat or getting farther out which lets you throw plasma. 6P may also work, haven't tried it. If Ram is poking a lot you can try IAD'ing in since her swords have a ton of recovery. I think another RPS facet is to represent IAD block so that even if I guess right I don't get a big reward out of it. I think it'll also get better as your pressure and combos tighten up. Ram's only reversal option is her one OD so if the opponent can pressure her well she kinda just has to sit there and take it until she finds an egress moment. 

 

Also and this is a more general thing for Ram: both sword slashes are really punishable oB. Not free since f.S can gatling into 2S/H and either can be sword tossed canceled but a) H can still be pretty punishable without it really spacing itself out, and b) if Ram starts tossing swords her options instantly narrow a lot. I don't know how true it is but I feel like I get away with a lot of f.S or H that I shouldn't (not just you, broadly with the char, but that may be due to a+b and be another part of her dickhead factor). If you can get her to toss H sword it cuts out her farthest normal, the 2nd part of her stupid long range gatling, one of her juciest CH buttons, and her best jump in. I'm really conservative so I try to only toss when it has really low consequences or I desperately need more space. If you hit up the towers I think you'll run into a lot of Ram players tossing out swords like they're Oprah and then you can maul the shit outta them as they flail helplessly.

 

As for reactions I appreciate the nod but I'm a 38 year old computer nerd with bad eyes. If I can do this anyone can. Just takes practice. 🙂 (hitbox doesn't hurt!)

 

Just my thoughts from the other side. And yes we did kick the shit out of lobby boss.

 

Also GGs @LaughingmanGlad we were able to Strive it up. I hope the player lobbies get refined to not be such a nightmare to search for.

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Vhozite Level 15

Vhozite

Posted
Posted (edited)

Man I still really like Pot. If by some freak occurrence I never like any of the DLC characters AND I get sick of Nago I would feel good playing him. 
 

Big boy buttons, big boy hp, big boy damage

 

Unrelated: Is there some trick to linking a button after Shizuriyuki>Dash for Nago? I can’t seem to hit it consistently and it’s a pretty essential link for his BnB’s.

 

Edit 2: This snow stage is beautiful. Definitely my favorite. 
 

Edit 3: Fuuuck I forgot how much I missed be able to use command grabs to combo.

Bloodsucking Universe + 50 tension for RRC = go wild lol

Edited by Vhozite
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