The Guilty Gear general: Getting Wildly Assaulted in the Keyhole

[M A R T I A N]

2 hours ago, Phantom_Miria said:

 

Pot is a gorilla over Sol? Uh, aight lol

 

1 hour ago, GetTheTables said:

No word on that and for as robust as Arc has been making their training modes I don't know that they are super big on frame data accessibility. Hopefully with enough clamoring they'll get on board.

 

 

They patched it into DBFZ later on, they damn well better do the same for this game. Hard to believe we’re not at the point yet where this feature is just an assumed inclusion in your fighting game. 🙄

[GetTheTables]

Frame data is one of those weird Japanese things. I don't know if they think its more "fun" that it is hidden, or that they shouldn't have to tell players about it, or whatever. Western devs always seem happy to provide detailed frame data day 1 whereas in Japanese games we often get somewhat janky frame data (the SFV implementation), none at all, or it as paid DLC.

 

I'm with you though of course. Especially for this game as it feels like not knowing when someone is + is just asking to be murdered super hard.

[Phantom_Miria]

Ah yes, the Japanese traditions in fighting games: it's fun to figure out frame data on your own without any in-game tool telling you that frame data even exists, delay netcode works fine here in the Land of the Rising Sun so I'm sure the Western barbarians will be able to make it work, giving a character less health but 15 ways to delete your larger lifebar in 15 seconds is fine balance.

Edited June 23, 2021 by Phantom_Miria

[Pair of Rooks]

54 minutes ago, GetTheTables said:

I'm with you though of course. Especially for this game as it feels like not knowing when someone is + is just asking to be murdered super hard.

So, I'm not big on in-game frame data. The only time I've liked having framedata in software was that one utility for SFV, FAT or whatever, or maybe the other one, where you could construct sequences to see if they'd combo, or what kind of gap is left in between given the oB numbers.

 

Right now the best time I've found to jab Gio out of her pressure is after I block the most plus move in her base kit, c.S, the knee thrust.  Regardless if she gatlings from it or special cancels she's using a follow-up with 9f startup or more. 

 

I didn't get much out of SFV's training mode, with the red blue characters. Maybe cause things happen too fast for me to process. 

[GetTheTables]

1 hour ago, Pair of Rooks said:

So, I'm not big on in-game frame data. The only time I've liked having framedata in software was that one utility for SFV, FAT or whatever, or maybe the other one, where you could construct sequences to see if they'd combo, or what kind of gap is left in between given the oB numbers.

 

Right now the best time I've found to jab Gio out of her pressure is after I block the most plus move in her base kit, c.S, the knee thrust.  Regardless if she gatlings from it or special cancels she's using a follow-up with 9f startup or more. 

 

I didn't get much out of SFV's training mode, with the red blue characters. Maybe cause things happen too fast for me to process. 

I'm with you on having an external reference. If I have a quick question I want to be able to get a quick answer and nothing will ever replace the convenience of an app/wiki/whatever for that.

 

However I do think that the worm needs to turn on having that data surfaced to the player. Its not like it is some arbitrary thing that players came up with: its in the game! 

 

Aside: I think that is probably why Japanese devs are weird about surfacing that data. They tend to be very conservative about what information they want customers to be able to access, while also having weird assumptions about what information they want or are willing to dig for (see: "hacking" out DLC characters by....reading directory names). 

 

FGs are already complicated and difficult enough to learn without having to go to a 3rd party resource to get that information. Likewise with a frame indicator for situations; the game knows if you're -/+ and by how much. If I'm trying to understand a situation it would be nice for the game to just cut out the middleman and show me. SFV does this - which is good - but it does it in a really cheap, janky way - which is bad. Though I respect they probably had very little time or resources to implement it so they probably did their best.

 

The really shitty analogy I came up with is if I had a ruler with no markings on it. I can still measure stuff since I know the length of the ruler and I can guestimate anything smaller than it, but why settle for less precision when more is available? The biggest impediment is probably a combination of architecture and mindset. 

 

It's not a *big* issue for me. I'm way more interested in crossplay implementation. But it is something they should probably address over the course of the game's life.

[Volt]

25 minutes ago, GetTheTables said:

I'm with you on having an external reference. If I have a quick question I want to be able to get a quick answer and nothing will ever replace the convenience of an app/wiki/whatever for that.

 

However I do think that the worm needs to turn on having that data surfaced to the player. Its not like it is some arbitrary thing that players came up with: its in the game! 

ArcSys used to have official frame data in their Material Books (or Mooks) for short, or something. I vaguely remember something like that alllll the way back when I hanged around Dustloop.

 

DBFZ also had the stuff in-game.

 

It's kinda puzzling why they didn't just put it in. It's not like there isn't any precedent.

[KingTubb]

40 minutes ago, GetTheTables said:

It's not a *big* issue for me.

Same here. ihmo, frame data points you in the right direction, but it's like looking at the box when you're doing a puzzle: It'll help get you there, but you gotta still put that shit together. 

 

I really just try to think in terms of "is this safe?" and "does this punish that?" cause I still got to pilot the thing. Math will lie to you. 

 

But at the same time

16 minutes ago, Volt said:

It's kinda puzzling why they didn't just put it in. It's not like there isn't any precedent.

This... It's already there, it shouldn't be that hard to do. I'm sure they already have a debug screen that has all this shit on it anyways. 

 

[Pair of Rooks]

I think the devs said they dropped some stuff due to Covid, so maybe framedata was one of them.

 

But also how far should a dev go before teaching how to play the game becomes spoiling the game?  Discovering shit in FGs is almost as important as it is in Zelda. Hell, it's probably the best part of FGs.  This is something SFV largely lacked.

 

If devs want more modes to bring in new players, a puzzle mode where you try to pick the move to escape an untrue string, without the anxiety of doing so at speed, would help a lot. Guitar Hero style input display for learning combos, first at half speed, would also be great. 

 

Until then,

 

 

 

[JustBooming]

On 6/17/2021 at 6:36 PM, Pair of Rooks said:

Did you ever find some MU tips on Ky vs Axl and Leo?

 may help

[Vhozite]

5 hours ago, Pair of Rooks said:

But also how far should a dev go before teaching how to play the game becomes spoiling the game? 

I don’t really agree with this perspective. Providing frame data isn’t really spoiling anything so much as it’s clarifying information that’s already there and can be figured out to a certain degree.
 

Like even if I don’t know that Sol 5K is 3 frames, I can easily see that P and K buttons are faster than almost anything else, and from there I can just test until I find that button to be his fastest move via trying to poke out of strings. Pretty simple stuff tbh, though tedious. Providing frame just streamlines this process. It’s not giving me the 411 on some obscure mechanic. 
 

 

[Hawkingbird]

 

[Pair of Rooks]

1 hour ago, Vhozite said:

I don’t really agree with this perspective. Providing frame data isn’t really spoiling anything so much as it’s clarifying information that’s already there and can be figured out to a certain degree.
 

Like even if I don’t know that Sol 5K is 3 frames, I can easily see that P and K buttons are faster than almost anything else, and from there I can just test until I find that button to be his fastest move via trying to poke out of strings. Pretty simple stuff tbh, though tedious. Providing frame just streamlines this process. It’s not giving me the 411 on some obscure mechanic. 
 

 

I'm not saying I hold this position, but I think this is legitimately what devs weigh during game design: how much to show and how much to hide.  Both extremes are bad.  And sure, Japanese devs are conservative about everything. (Like the belief that self-insert fanfic makes a good story. Someone send Daisuke to critters.org or Archive Of Our Own ffs pls.)

 

Unrelated:

 

PSA: if you just want to lab or try something out fast, put steam in offline mode, it'll boot straight to the main menu with no wait.

[Mr.Cipher]

Why are you all here and why is Pair of Rooks trying to shit on GGs Story.

Release the Dolphines.

[Vhozite]

Tried out a few different characters I was curious about just to see what they were like. My thoughts:

 

Millia: Cool mobility options and my favorite set of offensive tools. Stuff like heavy top and TK moon make seem like a real menace on offense. Wasn’t a fan of her seemingly short engagement range tho. One of those characters that has to get in before they can do anything.

 

Axl: Probably my second favorite characters aesthetically. Cool outfit, cool weapon, cool animations. Gameplay wise I found him more difficult to figure out. Like his plan to zone you is obviously simple, but looking as his kit he doesn’t seem as brain dead as I’ve seen some people claim. The two biggest things stopping me from playing him are the fact that his command grab seems to have year long startup and his one charge move. 
 

Gio: Easily my favorite of the 3 I tried. Love her mobility and her multi-hit moves makes her Gatling paths feel good even if she’s just as limited as other characters. She has to get in just like Millia but I feel like she has better tools to force that issue. The only thing I really didn’t like was how long it took for you to be able to attack again after canceling into her dash. Cool character otherwise.

[GetTheTables]

Gio is a lot of fun right out of the gate. Of any of the characters I've tried she is the one that just naturally worked the way I kinda thought she would. I think they really nailed her overall design.

 

I-No has also been fun but she is like the polar opposite. She's all about knowing her fiddly bits (giggity) and working with them as opposed to against them. When she starts grooving she definitely feels like an asshole. Always a positive sign with a char.

[Volt]

4 hours ago, Mr.Cipher said:

Why are you all here and why is Pair of Rooks trying to shit on GGs Story.

Release the Dolphines.

Because unlike the SFV Lounge, people here actually play Strive.

 

Look at all these beautiful on-topic posts.

 

Speaking of on-topic. I'mma stay in it.

 

Any news on the DLC story?

[Mr.Cipher]

I did it, I destroyed SF!

Funky legs!

 

[Sonero]

18 minutes ago, Mr.Cipher said:

I destroyed SF!

 

All that had to happen was a new game come out that was fun and had good netcode.

 

 

[Volt]

12 minutes ago, Sonero said:

 

All that had to happen was a new game come out that was fun and had good netcode.

 

 

Kinda silly how long it took. 🤣

[BornWinner]

1 hour ago, Volt said:

Any news on the DLC story?

Nothing that has been confirmed. I have a few theories on it but just that.

 

More neat Nago stuff

 

 

[Mr.Cipher]

I'm more surprised that doesn't yeet him at the upper left end of the screen.

Mai in BB had something similar, if you RC her 236C she would catapult trough the entire stage at mach speed.

[Vhozite]

3 hours ago, GetTheTables said:

Gio is a lot of fun right out of the gate. Of any of the characters I've tried she is the one that just naturally worked the way I kinda thought she would. I think they really nailed her overall design.

 

I-No has also been fun but she is like the polar opposite. She's all about knowing her fiddly bits (giggity) and working with them as opposed to against them. When she starts grooving she definitely feels like an asshole. Always a positive sign with a char.

I specifically avoided I-No because I don’t like the hover dash (or at least I didn’t in Xrd). It’s a strong mixup tool but for basic mobility I found it kinda hard to get used to. 
 

Yeah I also found Gio pretty intuitive. Pretty much everything works the way you’d expect it to. Another thing I forgot to mention is that I really like her dive kick super. It’s plus on block and can easily be hit-confirmed into from the ground. You can also do 6H straight into that OD because she goes airborne during that move. 
 

Next character I plan on trying is Pot, but I already know I like him lol. 

[Reticently]

I feel like I'm really invested in Anji, which kind of sucks because I'm realizing that I hate playing him.  Feels like he wants to do really dumb things in the hopes that he'll get to blow up his opponent for doing something even dumber.  🙃

[Pair of Rooks]

1 hour ago, Reticently said:

I feel like I'm really invested in Anji

Every time I feel like I'm wasting my life with Ky I tell myself, "well at least it's not Angie."   Thanks man. 😉

[Volta]

Either a substantial part of the GG community is cognitively impaired, or they're just not used to zoners. My average match playing as Axl goes a little something like this:

 

Opponent jumps from full screen into air dash.

 

I press 6K

 

*whack* 

 

Opponent jumps from mid screen into air dash.

 

I press 6K

 

*whack* 

 

Opponent jumps from 1/3 into air dash.

 

I do 2S, 5HS xx 214HS to send him back full screen.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

The decision-making process of some people is truly an enigma to me. 

[Volt]

30 minutes ago, Volta said:

Either a substantial part of the GG community is cognitively impaired, or they're just not used to zoners. My average match playing as Axl goes a little something like this:

 

Opponent jumps from full screen into air dash.

 

I press 6K

 

*whack* 

 

Opponent jumps from mid screen into air dash.

 

I press 6K

 

*whack* 

 

Opponent jumps from 1/3 into air dash.

 

I do 2S, 5HS xx 214HS to send him back full screen.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

The decision-making process of some people is truly an enigma to me. 

Stealing this. I needed a zoning guide for dummies. 👀

[BornWinner]

42 minutes ago, Volta said:

Either a substantial part of the GG community is cognitively impaired, or they're just not used to zoners. 

Guilty Gear has always been a hyper aggressive series so whenever there’s a zoner, you’ll find that a lot of people that autopilot their approach lose to really easy things. I had the same experience playing Justice in Plus R. It makes sense why a bunch of people hate her if they keep airdashing into her nukes.

[Skort]

I streamed this for ~2 hours today.  

 

I am very basic at this game , i keep bouncing between floor 7 and 8.  

 

I-No sure is a struggle but same as Juri, imma keep at it. What's the point of playing a game if it's not the character you like ?   🙂

 

Hard Rock Witch life !!! 

 

 

 

 

[Phantom_Miria]

3 minutes ago, BornWinner said:

Guilty Gear has always been a hyper aggressive series so whenever there’s a zoner, you’ll find that a lot of people that autopilot their approach lose to really easy things. I had the same experience playing Justice in Plus R. It makes sense why a bunch of people hate her if they keep airdashing into her nukes.

Like that Millia player that I met who kept dashing into my far slash into heavy slash.

Gotta keep these GG monsters honest with fair, grounded SF footsies.

 

By the way, I got back at Floor 8 today on my second day of online and managed to get some wins on the people there. Character variety in Europe seems pretty good: I met a Nago, a couple Leos, A Chipp, a Pot and then the usual May, Ky and Sol.

 

Gotta stay on guard against those damn Mr. Dolphins.

 

 

[Vhozite]

1 hour ago, BornWinner said:

Guilty Gear has always been a hyper aggressive series so whenever there’s a zoner, you’ll find that a lot of people that autopilot their approach lose to really easy things. I had the same experience playing Justice in Plus R. It makes sense why a bunch of people hate her if they keep airdashing into her nukes.

Same experience playing Nago. I smite the air dash approach with 2H 3 times in a row...better try it again lol. 
 

Everyone always says just take the dubs and be happy you won but I absolutely fucking hate playing FGs against people with no ability to adapt. It’s insanely boring and monotonous, but also these impatient ADHD style players are always the ones the get characters that can slow down the game nerfed. 
 

Similarly, players trying the same tactic till it works (or they die) is one of the reasons I think DPs and other reversals are so important. Reversals force the adaptation that makes fights more dynamic. 

[Vhozite]

HOLY SHIT YOU CAN BLOCK GROUND ATTACKS WHILE AIRBORNE WITHOUT FD

 

Sorry I know this is a really obvious revelation, but I’ve been wondering for a couple weeks now why anti-airing felt so different in Strive. I could never put my finger on what changed...that’s probably the biggest reason I see less FD in general. 
 

Im sorry but that change is absolutely ass

[Mr.Cipher]

Good thing I'm used to BB as anime game. Well and Melty.

But BB has strong zoning, I should know my character is Top Tier because of Potemkin sized projectiles.

[Pair of Rooks]

1 hour ago, Vhozite said:

HOLY SHIT YOU CAN BLOCK GROUND ATTACKS WHILE AIRBORNE WITHOUT FD

 

Only on the way up, if I read correctly. 

[Phantom_Miria]

Played against a Zato for the first time today.

 

Looks like you block a lot in that matchup.

[Volta]

Although playing flyswatter with Axl is pretty entertaining, I should really learn some oki strategies with him. J.s into Snail only gets you so far. I don't have the faintest clue yet how you oki in GG, so I guess I have some labbing to do.

 

^ As I type this, I realized the above sounds strangely like some lame-ass diary entry.

[Pair of Rooks]

Just now, Volta said:

Although playing flyswatter with Axl is pretty entertaining, I should really learn some oki strategies with him. J.s into Snail only gets you so far. I don't have the faintest clue yet how you oki in GG, so I guess I have some labbing to do.

 

^ As I type this, I realized the above sounds strangely like some lame-ass diary entry.

Honestly I didn't think Axl mains existed.  I still  have yet to meet a single one in ranked. 

 

Are you on PC or console?

 

[BornWinner]

Strive character designs: A more down-to-earth approach to the series exaggerated designs.

 

Also Strive character designs:

 

 

[Pair of Rooks]

Frauded my way back to floor 8... and game crash on the congrats screen.  🙄  I'm done for today. 

[Phantom_Miria]

9 hours ago, BornWinner said:

Strive character designs: A more down-to-earth approach to the series exaggerated designs.

 

Also Strive character designs:

 

 

As someone pointed out in the Twitter thread, that's a mixup.

 

The zippers don't even have anything to zip, they're just there to draw your attention, distract you and then hitting you with the full-screen command grab while you're looking elsewhere.

 

Axl is one twisted, slimy motherfucker.

[KingTubb]

Played a little bit with Pot last night and it was pretty dope. 

 

I think that my gameplan at the moment is to main May, try to have a pocket Ky and Pot. 

 

Pocket pot usually ends up with a court date and probation tho, so I should be careful. 

 

Fun little story from last night:

First games with Pot after 2 minutes in training just so I can find my ass with two hands and a roadmap;

Play a ram player. My first thought was that with her buttons, I'm totally screwed. Lose the first game, adjust and win the set.

Ram player is salty, so they switch to Sol. Start getting ignorant with sols silly buttons and get clapped as a result. 

After winning another set, I back out and switch to May and homeboy refuses to rematch me lolololol. 

 

Also, you can 360 potbuster instead of the 632146 input. Waaaaaay faster on hitbox. 

[Volta]

10 hours ago, Pair of Rooks said:

Honestly I didn't think Axl mains existed.  I still  have yet to meet a single one in ranked. 

 

Are you on PC or console?

 

I'm on PS4. So far, I've only played one mirror match, so my experience echoes yours.

[Skort]

How the hell do you record the training dummy to do anything ?   

 

I  have both  PLAY and RECORD buttons setup , slots are cleared but nothing happens when i press the button...... 

 

I know the player 2 character needs to be set in "training dummy" mode but still nothing. It keeps showing me  SLOT 1  TRAINING DUMMY above his head but won't allow me to take control of the other character when i press the record button.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Skort

[Sonero]

All things considered, think I like the floor system better than the normal SF5 ranked one.

[Phantom_Miria]

11 minutes ago, Skort said:

How the hell do you record the training dummy to do anything ?   

 

I  have both  PLAY and RECORD buttons setup , slots are cleared but nothing happens when i press the button...... 

 

I know the player 2 character needs to be set in "training dummy" mode but still nothing. It keeps showing me  SLOT 1  TRAINING DUMMY above his head but won't allow me to take control of the other character when i press the record button.

I went to training mode to be sure to get it right.

 

So, you have a Record and a Play button. In Training mode if you press Record once you'll switch control to the dummy and move him instead of your character. If you press Record again it will start actually recording, so do the moves you want to practice against, then press Record a third time to save the recording in the slot (this will also give you control back to your original characters and the dummy will go back being a dummy). Then press Play to actually play the slot.

 

If you press Play after pressing Record once it will make you change the recording slots you're using without going into the menus. If you press Play after you pressed Record twice in order to start actually recording it will cancel your recording in case you messed up or didn't like what you did.

 

I ask Daisuke personally and he confirmed me that this is very intuitive and easy to understand, so you shouldn't worry.

[Skort]

9 minutes ago, Phantom_Miria said:

I went to training mode to be sure to get it right.

 

So, you have a Record and a Play button. In Training mode if you press Record once you'll switch control to the dummy and move him instead of your character. If you press Record again it will start actually recording, so do the moves you want to practice against, then press Record a third time to save the recording in the slot (this will also give you control back to your original characters and the dummy will go back being a dummy). Then press Play to actually play the slot.

 

If you press Play after pressing Record once it will make you change the recording slots you're using without going into the menus. If you press Play after you pressed Record twice in order to start actually recording it will cancel your recording in case you messed up or didn't like what you did.

 

I ask Daisuke personally and he confirmed me that this is very intuitive and easy to understand, so you shouldn't worry.

 

I am aware of all of those.  Literally every button shortcut works except  record / play for me. 

 

It's just not registering the command. And i tried to assign different buttons as well just to be sure. Nothing.

[Phantom_Miria]

5 minutes ago, Skort said:

 

I am aware of all of those.  Literally every button shortcut works except  record / play for me. 

 

It's just not registering the command. And i tried to assign different buttons as well just to be sure. Nothing.

Weird.

 

It doesn't work no matter where you map the Record and Play buttons?

[BornWinner]

39 minutes ago, Sonero said:

All things considered, think I like the floor system better than the normal SF5 ranked one.

Yeah I like it too. It also seems like it will be good when the playerbase starts to taper off. The only thing I would change is how ranking and deranking works. I feel it should happen at the end of the set instead of whenever. 

[Volta]

39 minutes ago, Sonero said:

All things considered, think I like the floor system better than the normal SF5 ranked one.

There should be many more floors, though. A week ago I had never played a GG game, and 3 days ago I first frauded my way up to the 10th floor before being kicked down to 9th again, ranking up again, getting kicked down to 9th again, getting to 10th floor again, etc. The difference between 9th and 10th floor is just too big.

 

At 9th floor I feel like I'm in GG's Platinum equivalent, and when you rank up you suddenly find yourself between Warlords and Ultimate Grand Masters.

[Mr.Cipher]

I will never warm up to ranked systems.

I've been playing Parks since release and I like it, usually play ft5 or if the matches are really good ft10s and then wait for the next opponent.

 

 

[Mattatsu]

I prefer parks solely because I hate how ranked can bump you up and down mid-set, and how the set doesn’t end on a 2-0.

 

The only thing that sucks is the majority of my matches in parks are against people that won’t rematch because I either suck too much, or I’m too tough/cheap.

 

I usually start in the park but if I can’t get a good match after a few different people, I’ll hop into the towers