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The Street Fighter V Thread, vol. 2

misterBee

By misterBee
in Fighting Game Discussion

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Sonero said:

Hopefully the quit the comeback nonsense. Its crazy how that v-trigger/ultra stuff just drags down gameplay so much.

 

If you're game is gonna be crazy, let it be crazy. But the world of x-factor, v-triggers, and all that other stuff is tired. that shit sucks.

 

Yeah, that one instant completely negated everything else. LMAO.

 

 

Like i have said before, having comeback mechanics is not the problem, is that Capcom implements them in the most idiotic ways possible.

Other games have similar mechanics and they work fine.

 

And being honest, the Vtrigger has been their most well implemented so far, it still needs tweaking to actually be a good implementation, but imo, they are close now than when they were with Ultras and X-Factor.

 

I wouldn't mind if Vtrigger made a comeback (haha get it) on SF6 in a revisioned way that made them work more like either Overdrive from BBCF or Heat Up from BattleFantasia/Dark Force from Vampire Savior.

 

Just tie the Vtrigger into  the super meter.

Like instead of having EX moves, make the Vtrigger the evolution of them.

If they insist on having the chars to be incomplete in terms of not having their full toolkit, at least make it so that we have them under the vtrigger system, which is now universal on how it works, where the chars access like on most recent KOF games their ex move versions while on a super powered mode/install state that is akin to the vtrigger, it consumes 1 bar of super meter, and the char is able to build like 3 super meters and carries over between round.

 

Just an example.

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted

I guess since we are on this topic, what Street Fighter was *really* footsies based? Or at least to the extent that people think it is? Maybe Hyper Fighting?

 

I'm sure with sf4 the intention was to have it be a strictly grounded and spacing type of fighting game, but the exploits and weird bs in it made the opposite happen.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, elliephil said:

I guess since we are on this topic, what Street Fighter was *really* footsies based? Or at least to the extent that people think it is? Maybe Hyper Fighting?

 

I'm sure with sf4 the intention was to have it be a strictly grounded and spacing type of fighting game, but the exploits and weird bs in it made the opposite happen.

 

The thing is that all SF games are ground based when it comes to their spacing, since outside maybe specific chars, they have restricted movement on air and outside the Alpha and 3 series, you don't have means to block/parry an anti air.

But even on the case of those 2 series, on the Alpha games you didn't have dashes and on the 3 series you had to time your parry correctly.

 

I think that when it comes to SF4, the issue wasn't that it was not ground based, but that certain chars, once they gained the upper hand on the neutral, they could simply put you on what the players called a vortex and you if you didn't had the tools to deal with it, then you were fucked.

 

As we saw with the tier lists and how the game evolved, if you couldn't capitalize from the universal mechanics you were fucked, and most chars that could put you on a vortex were also chars that could capitalize from the universal mechanics, creating this situation where besides having a strong toolkit, they were also favored by the mechanics of the game.

 

When people talk about this subject, i think it boils down to preferences.

 

Side note

 

This also ties up to the wrong perception that games with other forms of movement outside the ground don't have spacing game, is just that it takes a different form, since now you have other tools to play the neutral game.

 

Edited by Hecatom
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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

The best way to sum SFIV is that it was neutral heavy until it wasn't.

 

That's demonstrably untrue. As in we can start pulling match footage of this being lies. You had some characters with super strong meme offense, but you still had to be godlike with those characters to make it far. There was only one really good top makoto, only one person really pushed Dudley far, same with Fuerte etc.

 

Hell we can start getting footage from random tournamets and the amount of neutral is gonna be higher than the amount of memeing. People must've forgotten what a lot of those top 8s because saying it wasn't neutral heavy is silly.

 

Hell SF5 is footsies heavy too, its just mired in shitty mechanics.

 

Whole thread looking mad suspicious.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, elliephil said:

Lol sf4 in the later stages of it's life cycle was messed up.

 

Tell me about it.

Dunno what it was, but for me, the peak of my enjoyment of SF4 was with Super, after that my enjoyment became waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay low.

I still liked to watch the Evo top 8 and maybe some other tournaments from time to time, but playing the game felt like a chore.

 

 

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Sonero said:

snip

I think you are misunderstanding what i am saying.

The game is neutral heavy until it stops being one.

 

I am talking about when you are in  the matches, specifically about how most of the top tiers compromised this group of chars that could stop giving a fuck about the neutral game once they started their own gameplan.

Or other chars that could give a fuck about playing neutral, like El Fuerte o C.Viper.

 

The game had this dichotomy of wanting to be one thing and having a subset of chars that once they had the ball rolling they didn't give a fuck about that, lol.

 

Like i said in my other posts, all the sf games are ground focused with their neutral game, but depending of the game, you will either have instances that the neutral game seems less of the focus depending of the mechanics in the game or the toolkit of the chars.

 

SFV for all the shit people talks about it, is still ground based with their neutral game, but due the toolkit of the chars, it seems les emphasized due how the range the players can play their neutral game has been reduced, forcing the chars to be closer, for example.

 

Edit

 

Then add that in certain matches, having an Ultra could shut down your opponent options for neutral in a way that felt unfair.

It was one of the many complaints people had about them, besides rewarding the losing player.

 

The neutral of SF4 was like you said for SF5, mired by dumb mechanics and poor design decisions. 

Edited by Hecatom
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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Sonero said:

That's demonstrably untrue. As in we can start pulling match footage of this being lies.

I suppose it depends on which version was being played (more so, at what time.) The proximity guard, buffer, and glitched transition frames on recovery in sf4 could essentially allow neutral to be played for you. I think only on highest level of play where you know the opponent could utilize this, you have to play a more traditional style. Which in that case, yes you are right. But at the same time, there's probably 3x as much tournament footage of someone getting fucked by vortex.

 

 

Edited by elliephil
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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, elliephil said:

Which in that case, yes you are right. But at the same time, there's probably 3x as much tournament footage of someone getting fucked by vortex.

 

You sure there's gonna be 3x as much footage of somebody getting  bunch of OSes ran on them after one hit? I bet you there isn't. That's like the people saying MvC2 was a ToD game. When you check the game footage you find out how rarely that actually panned out.

 

All of the OS stuff is and was shitty, combining that with the characters that could legit run it on you with all OS was even shittier, but it didn't happen as badly as you figured it would've/should've.

 

Honestly a lot of the old SF4 matches are worth rewatching. A lot of great matches happened during that time.

 

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Sonero said:

All of the OS stuff is and was shitty, combining that with the characters that could legit run it on you with all OS was even shittier, but it didn't happen as badly as you figured it would've/should've.

Take my thoughts as anecdotes then because so many people I played with were able to utilize this tech consistently with the usual chars that people complain about. Casual and in tournament. I loved watching the SF4 streams and would probably enjoy watching them again with a new perspective.

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Shakunetsu Level 17

Shakunetsu

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, DoctaMario said:

They're doing really well with pretty much every other franchise. I don't know if it's that SF has gotten more lame or that other Fg franchises are much more exciting.

SNK may have some missed with Samsho and KOF in few gameplay mechanic, but they knew their the characters and style that their niche are into. 

 

The problem with Capcom is that they see SF and FGC as an option not as something special. So they do whatever they want now. It's like they are full of themselves, they are acting like Nintendo when they aren't the current trend setter like they were before.

 

I remember internet influencer saying that it was ONO fault that DS got cancelled and it was under ONO's idea saying that consumer should buy Darkstalkers collection to have a DS game but nowadays the story had change it seems it's not because it's happening again that they are gauging a brand of fighting game using sales according to the new narrative while that guy that they blame is now entirely out of the picture.

 

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delete_me Level 12

delete_me

Posted
Posted

Keep in mind that SFV was developed during the time when Capcom struggled a lot, i.e. shortly after stuff like RE6 came out. Or basically their first new big game after the PS360 generation, which all things considered was pretty abysmal for Capcom.

 

We haven't seen a new fighting game from them ever since their renaissance, so to speak, which depending on who you ask started either with RE7 or Monster Hunter World. In that sense I have no doubts that SFVI will launch as a more accomplished product than SFV. As for everything around it like the eSports stuff, that's another matter, but that's also handled by a completely different department, so it's misjudged to look at that stuff right now and project the negativity on the actual game in development.

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AriesWarlock Level 18

AriesWarlock

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Shakunetsu said:

SNK may have some missed with Samsho and KOF in few gameplay mechanic, but they knew their the characters and style that their niche are into. 

 

The problem with Capcom is that they see SF and FGC as an option not as something special. So they do whatever they want now. It's like they are full of themselves, they are acting like Nintendo when they aren't the current trend setter like they were before.

 

I remember internet influencer saying that it was ONO fault that DS got cancelled and it was under ONO's idea saying that consumer should buy Darkstalkers collection to have a DS game but nowadays the story had change it seems it's not because it's happening again that they are gauging a brand of fighting game using sales according to the new narrative while that guy that they blame is now entirely out of the picture.

 

 

 

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Shakunetsu Level 17

Shakunetsu

Posted
Posted (edited)

I had similar thoughts with Vesper, except for characters like Dhalsim, Blanka and Honda, and also they might not return Feilong or replace him with a new bruce lee rep. Because I don't think the current lead value those characters or might seen them as function. Sean might have a Honda reason appearing in SFV why he would make it to DLC in SF6

 

It's not a Wishlist it's more of his analysis and prediction of chances getting into.

 

  

9 minutes ago, AriesWarlock said:

 

 

exactly haha

Edited by Shakunetsu
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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Shakunetsu said:

exactly haha

I talked about on SRK and people told me I was wrong.

 

FGs is the only hobby where you're basically held hostage by developers. If they do a bad port, you gotta buy it to "show support" or they think that you weren't interested at all. it can't be they did a bad job with the product, people just didn't want it at all.

 

Its ridiculous TBH.

 

 

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted

30th was kinda trash TBH. I 100% do not want them working on an MvC2 port. I'll say it here, to their faces, I'll sign a petition on change.org IDGAF.

 

This is an even bigger issue with how nice MvC2 is on fightcade. But if I'd hypothetically would want an MvC4 or 5, I'd have to buy a bad port of MvC2 to get it.

 

Dumb shit.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

They're doing really well with pretty much every other franchise. I don't know if it's that SF has gotten more lame or that other Fg franchises are much more exciting.

For me is a combination of both.

This would be sound like a contradictory rambling, but bear with me.

 

I don't mind SF keeping it tame with what mechanics introduces since is part of its identity.

They have other series to go wild with what they could implement.

 

Part of the identity of the SF series is that is simpler, and they spice up things with the universal mechanics for the games.

The problem is that for some reason they keep fucking the implementations of those.

 

You either have universal mechanics that favor the top tiers or certain type of chars, like Ultras and FDAC's on 4, or you have what is basically giding part of the tool kit of the char behind an Install type of move, which dunno if they felt it was a concern of balance for them, which s what imo (pure speculation from my part here) what lead to have the chars reworked in some way or another, by gimping their range with their normals, adding once again the priority system, etc, etc

 

IMO, SFV would be on a much better place if they refined crush counters by removing the dumb priority system, that shit was cancer on SF3 and it is cancer here as well.

It essentially limits what you can and can't not use, combine that with deceptive hurboxes/hitboxes that make the clarity of your moves ranges kind of bad.

 

Another of my issues with SF and capcom fgs in general is that they feel like capcom doe the bare minimum now days, while the competition keeps rising the bar on basically every aspect.

 

Like just look at  Samsho with its less than stellar netcode manages to be a more exciting game due how the game works when you play it locally and when you are lucky with  online matches with a stable connection.

 

And is a game that could be seem as much simpler than SF.

 

And let me clear that despite my many gripes with SFV, i still like to play it from time to time, is just that other companies are offering similar experiences in packages that i find more appealing (Samsho, GBFVS, and even the poverty game Koihime Musou Enbu, lol), not only in mechanics and feel, but also presentation.

 

SFV is a game that is a mess on its presentation, it doesn't feel cohesive.

You have chars that do look good, while others look like crap, specially jarring when you have a lot of clipping even on the default outfits, for some people this is a minor thing, and for me it usually is, but i know that when presenting the game, and on the char select screen they see Laura's hair clipping on her default costume, a lot of people will fell that the game looks cheap.

 

On the subject of the chars that look good they also get dragged down by how muted the lights are in game, something that also happened to KOFXIV, btw, and in certain way Samsho too.

 

If you import the models , or hell, just tweak the lights of the game, you can see that the game is not as ugly as people say

 

0zjjzjofyap51.jpg

 

db7dil7-ffb21095-974d-4faf-a5ff-dafd1bd3

 

 

 

Dunno what they are planning for SF6, but i doubt that i am buying it, at least day one.

 

I am kind of tired of this notion that they are adding depth by removing tools from the chars and putting either as an option on the vs screen, or behind the vtriggers.

I wouldn't mind the vtriggers being revisited if it means improving on the concept.

 

If i would be able to do SF6, i would remove EX moves, at least as how they work now, i would go with an hybrid approach from SF3 Alpha and Battle Fantasia.

 

Letting the player to store like 3 bars of super, which can be used for different levels of strength, and adding a Heat Up (Battle Fantasia) /Dark Force (Dark Stalkers) approach to replace/expand the Vtrigger system.

It could be adding new/replacing moves/changing their properties to add new combo routes, maybe make some moves act as ex moves, dunno.

 

But that is just me.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

SNK may have some missed with Samsho and KOF in few gameplay mechanic, but they knew their the characters and style that their niche are into. 

 

The problem with Capcom is that they see SF and FGC as an option not as something special. So they do whatever they want now. It's like they are full of themselves, they are acting like Nintendo when they aren't the current trend setter like they were before.

 

I remember internet influencer saying that it was ONO fault that DS got cancelled and it was under ONO's idea saying that consumer should buy Darkstalkers collection to have a DS game but nowadays the story had change it seems it's not because it's happening again that they are gauging a brand of fighting game using sales according to the new narrative while that guy that they blame is now entirely out of the picture.

 

 

 

Ono has been always the scapegoat for many idiots on the fgc because he is the face they see from the company, and they clearly have 0 knowledge on how big companies/corporations work.

 

Many of those who blame him, and still do it to this day, btw, don't realize that it was his passion that kept SF talked internally, always trying to get the project off the ground, that it was him that kept door open with namco for example, allowing for the eventual release of SFxT, for better or worse, lol.

 

They think that since he was the SF guy, he was the fg guy at campcom, so he was in charge of MVC3, UMVC3, MVCI.

Many ignore that his position with the sf games has always been as a producer, meaning that he was in charge that the project was done in time, managing the resources, but that doesnt mean he was the sole person behind every decision on the game, like mechanics, roster, etc.

 

Those decisions are made by committee, meaning that is decided between different areas, based on costs, market research, creatives, etc.

 

And even if they could have a solid plan, there is always the chance that they need to compromise their vision if there are internal initiatives like reducing costs/risks, or trying to increase market appeal based on directives that come from above.

 

Is really sad imo, because i am a firm believer that Ono was a beacon for the capcom fgs within the company, and his passion was a key factor on capcom giving them a 2nd chance, but many idiots like to blame him for everything 😕

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Sonero said:

I talked about on SRK and people told me I was wrong.

 

FGs is the only hobby where you're basically held hostage by developers. If they do a bad port, you gotta buy it to "show support" or they think that you weren't interested at all. it can't be they did a bad job with the product, people just didn't want it at all.

 

Its ridiculous TBH.

 

 

 

TBH, is not only on FGs.

We see this kind of stuff in a lot of other niche games.

 

Like, for example, Square with their Front Mission games, they release poor man re imaginations of the game in other genres like a 3rd person shooter or a survival game like Left Alive, and when those games flop, because is not what the fans want from the series, you know, a strategy rpg, they assume that there is no interest on the brand and abandon it.

 

Or how EA fuck Death Space with the 3rd entry, shifting the focus of the game from horror to action and adding micro transsactions, to then assume that the brand is no longer as profitable because people are not into it.

 

Or Square again, with Deus Ex, having unrealistic expectations for how needs to sell, and since they would have never been meet, they abandon the series leaving us in a cliffhanger, and for what?

To put the studio to work on Marvel's Avengers.

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted

A friend invited me to play sfv lobbies and I'm almost tempted to do a run for Diamond on ranked. This late into the game I feel like you can get some straight up robbery with characters like Luke, Balrog, Birdie, Cammy, etc.

 

When I got my PC in 2017, I did a run for gold and that took about 3 hours. Any idea how long it would take for diamond?

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delete_me Level 12

delete_me

Posted
Posted

I'm not sure Birdie can carry you to Diamond and while she's strong, people kind of know the Cammy matchup these days.

 

But yeah, Luke, Balrog, but also Bison, Urien and Kolin can totally get you there with very little effort. I still remember that Urien player from reddit who was Super Diamond or something and didn't even know the game had a priority system. Aegis makes its own rules.

 

Anyway, no idea for the time commitment. Depends on how consistent you are I suppose but it'll be more than 3 hours for sure.

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, elliephil said:

A friend invited me to play sfv lobbies and I'm almost tempted to do a run for Diamond on ranked. This late into the game I feel like you can get some straight up robbery with characters like Luke, Balrog, Birdie, Cammy, etc.

 

Luke is a robbery character?

 

Also most people below diamond are bad. Just play cammy and DP every once in a while if the netcode lets you. Most of it is gonna depend on the netcode letting you do anything.

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Sonero said:

 

Luke is a robbery character?

 

Also most people below diamond are bad. Just play cammy and DP every once in a while if the netcode lets you. Most of it is gonna depend on the netcode letting you do anything.

I only say Luke because it seems like no one knows how to deal with his ranges and his damage is insane.

 

Funny enough, I got to Plat in season 1 on ps4 in one week playing only Cammy and going for tick into frame trap or throw. Played like 6 hours a day tho, that was tiring waaah

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, elliephil said:

Funny enough, I got to Plat in season 1 on ps4 in one week playing only Cammy and going for tick into frame trap or throw. Played like 6 hours a day tho, that was tiring waaah

 

Good news then: thats still optimal Cammy gameplay. Whiff punish here or there and you're done.

 

 

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Illwill88 Level 11

Illwill88

Posted
Posted

Now tell me who to play to get my scrub ass to diamond 🤣. (There's not one)

 

I started playing again here and there a couple weeks ago. 

I'm bored of Laura, the last time I actually played was before v-shift or anything and it ruins pretty much all my bonita shenanigans. 

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, Illwill88 said:

Now tell me who to play to get my scrub ass to diamond 🤣. (There's not one)

 

I started playing again here and there a couple weeks ago. 

I'm bored of Laura, the last time I actually played was before v-shift or anything and it ruins pretty much all my bonita shenanigans. 

 

To get to diamond? Almost anybody. You could probably cruise control your way to diamond with a lot of the odd characters like FANG because you can just exploits people with knowledge checks (and FANG is just god tier are putting people into weird spots).

 

Hardest thing to overcome is the netcode and the matchmaking.  I'd go sometimes as long as 10 minutes waiting for a match to queue up. That's with both Ranked and Casuals up. Never had to wait that long for a match in Strive.

 

That's probably the funniest thing about it. Even with all the annoying stuff, it has been way easier to play games in Strive than in SF5. Can you imagine waiting 15 minutes + just to find a game? Because it happens with SF5. Then you wait all that and the connection is buttcheeks.

 

Gawd that whole thing is a piece of shit.

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