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Video Game Discussion Thread vol. 2

misterBee

By misterBee
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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, elliephil said:

snip

 

Wow, i don't even know where to start, lmao.

For starters, tell me how saying that the game did good for its time is a contradiction ?

Unless your reasoning is that a niche game doing good numbers within its niche is not enough.

 

2nd, LMAO, ignoring the clownery of assuming i didnt play sfiv enough, you are aware that SFIV in its lifetime was always the game pulling more numbers on tournaments both in participants and viewers right?

Not to mention sales, (a kind of unfair comparison since it had more revisions over the years, but still, even if we just compare between the 1st 2 versions on a similar timespan, SFIV overshadowed MVC3 sales for a reason)

 

You have to be delusional to think that just because a viewer is not aware of high level play thinking, strategies, technical stuff, etc  they wouldnt have an easier time to follow what is happening on screen between SFIV vs what is happening on the screen on mvc3, where all the things you say are happening on the background on SFIV are also happening there, but with more chars on the screen and more over the top effects/specials + at more speed, yes is more dynamic, and yes it can be more hype for some viewers when compared to SFIV, but no, is not easier to follow.

 

This is not a subjective thing, if you take a person who doesnt have experience with fgs and put the 2 in front of him, is very likely that it would be more easy to understand what is happening on screen on sfiv than mvc3 just by virtue of having less stuff to follow.

 

The only thing subjective is what general viewers decide to follow even if is difficult to follow as an spectator without prior experience with the game or not, like LOL and OW for example.

 

And no, i am not underestimating the popularity of the MCU, what i am saying is that you are overestimating the popularity of the mvc series.

Yes, the MCU is huge, and yes, it can by association lead to more sales for other projects with the Marvel brand.

But as we saw with MVCI having the name alone is not a guarantee, of course, that game botched its launch in multiple ways besides being on a niche genre, so all of that factor in, but still, we can see that the Marvel name is not enough to entice people into buying a game, specially when is a niche genre.

 

Being an MCU fan, doesnt translate most of the time into sales for other marvel stuff, we see in comics, games and other media and products.

 

And you know something funny?

By the time that MVCI was starting to be promoted, the game was still not in the radar of most of its target audience, i remember how in many comic/marvel/mcu sub redits there was mock up character select screen in the vein of Injustice being thrown around, with people saying how cool it would be if NRS made a fg like Injustice but with marvel characters.

 

Or how people on those same comic/marvel/mcu sub redits said that they only played injustice because there werent good marvel fighting games, even as to go and say that they hate capcom fighitng games, or that they would consider the mvc games if they dropped the capcom half.

 

 

 

 

Also, I disagree with the notion that an INJ kind of game couldn't be successful as an esports game, when we have seen similar ish/ comparable ish games doing well, SFIV and SFV.

But i wouldnt deny that is an interesting phenomenon that NRS games have the most sales of all fgs in the market, but always fail to keep a healthy scene long enough.

I assume that most of its audience consist of casuals and enthusiasts that are mostly for the ride of the cinematics and the flavor of the month.

Plus NRS/WB doesnt seem that invested as Capcom with their esports initiative.

 

By this point what we are really arguing is about your personal preference over your preferred fg and the potential you see on it.

Which tbh, i dont disagree that a marvel style of game has the potential of being a spectator game, mvc3 was it for its time, and dbfz keeps doing it until today.

 

I am only saying that you seem to be ignoring the fact that there were multiple factors that made mvc3 not be capitalized as you say.

 

Licensing deals

Esports as a thing just being started to become a thing for the "general" audiences

FGS still being a niche genre that by the time were starting to grow again thanks to the rise of netplay, streaming service, social media, etc.

And the FG events being a grassroots thing, where unlike most esports events, it is a community driven thing.

Capcom still being new to the whole involving themselves with the scenes, not forming the CPT until way later of the release of their games.

And with the CPT still relying on the grassroots events that the communities around the world do.

 

And lastly, i am sure that MVC3 was only on one CPT because the licensing deals blocked them.

You remember all the discussions that we all had on the mvc sub forum on SRK.

Where Disney themselves cockblocked the game for multiple events.

 

I wouldnt be surprised if something similar happened with MVC3.

Keep in mind that there is a huge difference between a grassroots event and a esports/invitational event, since one is community driven and the other is more about profit driven, once you have that in the equation, it makes muddier the relationship between owners of the ips, game publishers, event organizers, etc, since everyone will want a part of the pie.

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MillionX Level 16

MillionX

Posted
Posted (edited)

Streets of Rage 4-- Arcade mode on Hard; completed... this was surprisingly easy with Shiva, since y'know...that dude happens to be the GOD.  I can't get enough of playing that character.  It's flashy combos all day with that dude.... I got 2 achievements out of that, actually; which nets me some more of the juicy MS Reward points once again.  

Actually, I've rarely played with any of the other dlc characters; once I saw Shiva was playable and there was a new "Survival" mode, that right there was enough to easily sell the DLC for me; everything after that is just a nice bonus to me.  I've played Estelle maybe once, I think... 

 

Skyrim - "curing" my vampirism for the Alduin fight... I'm still wanting to hold off on that as a last resort... it also occurred to me that perhaps I just need to feed and revert to "stage 1" vampirism, so the fire weakness is lessened... I still need more healing items as well though, so yeah I may still be able to do prevail with a change-up in plans...

Edited by MillionX
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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, Hecatom said:

 

words

I wasn't really looking for an argument, I was just stating that I think there could have been an opportunity for something bigger than grassroots events through Mvc3.

 

The contradiction I saw was how you said that mvc3 did well and then went on about how it wouldn't be viable as an esports thing and cited sales as a main point. If I misinterpreted that, oops.

 

I guess it really comes down to viewing esports as entertainment, competition, or both and I think maybe this conversation has revealed that it's somewhere in a grey area. Some people watch and play for competition, some do it for entertainment. I guess comparing sf4 and mvc3 is like comparing apples and oranges. I think sf4 is absolutely a more technical game compared to mvc3 and that's why I think it is harder to understand as a spectator. I think being a casual viewer and seeing anything for the first time will be a sensory overload, so idk.

 

Didn't Injustice have that esports thing funded by WB and Turner? It seemed like it did okay. I get what you're saying comparing the mvc brand to injustice and how the name alone won't carry it. I think the gameplay of mvc3 combined with the community, commentary, storylines, everything could have created something really unique for Capcom to capitalize on during that era. I hope this Project L game can do something similar to what I imagine.

 

Let me fantasize damn it 😅

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MillionX Level 16

MillionX

Posted
Posted (edited)

Curse of the Dead Gods--- I didn't realize until now there's "daily events" in this game too... you get 2 crystal skulls per room the further you go....nice pay-out there.  

This last run was a good example of some interesting curses... I forgot what it was called, but 1 curse was something about psychological damage... so hits from enemies caused hallucinations...but with the bonus that dodging no longer costs stamina.  I beat 1 of the champions on that daily run but I had basically no health remaining after that... and to make matters worse, that daily started off with a sort of "death timer"....and time was almost up...so even if I was doing well, death was inevitable.  Kills add a second or 2 back to your time.  On top of all this... I had 3 curses active at that point.

 

...yeah I might double-dip and get this on XB1 too....especially since I've been loaded up with the reward points lately.

Edited by MillionX
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BornWinner Level 17

BornWinner

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Sonichuman said:

Looks like Baiken is getting put in everything but Guilty Gear right now lol

 

ArcSys knows that Baiken is popular enough that they make a bunch of money by making her DLC.

 

The KOF All Stars x GG crossover looks pretty cool, but I promised myself I will never subject myself to another gatcha.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, elliephil said:

Let me fantasize damn it 😅

No 😠

1 hour ago, elliephil said:

Snip

 

I didn't see it as an argument, but more like a discussion, like you know, talking different povs

Now i am inclined to ask, why do you think that SFIV is more technical than MVC3?

 

If we were to define a game being technical, it would be that it requires certain level of skill from part of the player involving techniques and knowledge of the game to be proficient on it.

 

I would argue that MVC3 as a whole can be more demanding than SFIV outside certain things like execution due its whole 1f link for most of its combos which gets partially trivialized due plinking anyway, since as a whole, mvc3 has extra complexities and layers that SFIV doesnt that outside of the regular stuff you have in most fighting games.

Outside having to be able to we dash consistently to be able to play the space game, we have characters with extra mobility options to take into account, we have the whole air spacing game, we have more over the top zoning characters, which leads you as a player to have e good understanding of your mobility options and the projectiles, beams and assists trajectories to maneuver around them, as a player you have to not only learn 3X times the amount of moves and specials, but also do it for your opponents and the different combinations of chars you can face, which even accounting that you will not face every character at high level play, is still not easy.

 

Dunno where you really put the weight on what makes one game less technical than the other.

 

1 hour ago, elliephil said:

I think the gameplay of mvc3 combined with the community, commentary, storylines, everything could have created something really unique for Capcom to capitalize on during that era. 

 

As for this, i understand wanting the games you like to be bigger, but tbh, i am not sure that the community will benefit of becoming more esports, outside a small number of top players getting more payouts for participating on the events, and i am not alone on that.

Not to mention that it feels kinda wrong the idea of Capcom capitalizing on what the community has done.

 

I think that what Capcom and other companies have done so far has been one of the best options, since the scenes of the games have grown organically, and what they do is support the events and use the community events as both like their own mini e3s where they announce new games/dlc/etc and as part of their circuits.

 

Some people would argue that even what they are doing has been disruptive in a way, since the scenes for certain games become dependent of having an official circuit to keep the interest of the players, which in turn can mean that once X game is not supported by the official circuit of Y company, the scene dies off, something that wasn't the case before.

The CPT for example, has been a blessing/curse for some people since it kept SFV alive after its disastrous launch 🤣

 

We kept and keep playing old games for years because we like them, we keep organizing games for them, even if they dont bring big numbers because we like them.

But in the terms of esports numbers are king, since they bring sponsors, new players and in a way determinate the fate of the game.

 

Just look at how many games that were made to be esports die once the circuit fails for some reason or another, specially when the devs/publishers didnt allow the scene around the game to grow organically, or want to impose total control of the scene behind it, like Heroes of the Storm for example.

 

And once the circuit was killed, and the game development was halted, you have a scene that kind of fizzles off, since they are heavily dependent of the official circuit.

 

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted

The riot fighter looks cool. Only problem is that they can't really fix the biggest issue with FGs: losing in FGs is inherently unfun.

 

Its even worse is that they made it a team game. Team games with assists make it even easier to cave somebody's head in. Which means they are going to speed run people into hating how they lost a game.

 

 

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Sonero said:

The riot fighter looks cool. Only problem is that they can't really fix the biggest issue with FGs: losing in FGs is inherently unfun.

 

Its even worse is that they made it a team game. Team games with assists make it even easier to cave somebody's head in. Which means they are going to speed run people into hating how they lost a game.

 

 

Dunno about the losing part, since is mostly that many people dont like losing, period.

The difference is that FGs being a 1 vs 1 thing, doesnt give people many outlets to externalize their loses outside the game sucking or their opponent cheating, spamming, etc.

The few that internalize their lose, have only 2 options, better up or give up, and most of the time is just easier to move on, specially when games are commodities, and there are plenty of games out there that will satisfy them and provide with outlets to externalize their frustration.

 

Like OverWatch, that even cuddles its player base with in game systems, like plays of the game and gold medals, which in turns creates those players that live in a bubble about their own skill and help into creating this toxic community behind the game.

 

I, as you can guess, disagree with SP posture, i know that making the game inputs easier will not help.

Since now you will have people justifying their loses with more conviction that they lose to a no skill player that just spammed what they percieved as strong, and knowing Riot and how they balance their games, i expect the game to be a patch fest even worse than mk9.

 

Inputs have never been the issue, otherwise, games like Fantasy Strike and the Power Rangers game would be doing great, since they lowered the input barrier, in the case of the PR game, has a recognizable Ip behind it and both have good netcode, only lacking on the graphics by not looking the prettiest out there.

 

And like he said in his video, by removing the inputs "complexity", they need to move it into another place, which is very likely why the game is now a team fighter.

By having less inputs and button options for moves for the chars, they need to compensate in some way.

 

And while i like mvc3 and prbotg, if we were to assume that the game will be as wild as the teaser showed, that would immediately turn off a lot of people.

Most dont  like being comboed to death, and it will be even worse by knowing that your opponent is not doing "complex" shit regardless if is true or not.

 

Plus, like we have seen with games like PRBotG, those easy inputs can still cause confusions, specially if there are potential overlaps.

And you are still learning 3 characters against the combination of characters your opponents have and the strategies that can come from it.

Plus all the not so obvious shit like spacing and neutral game, in game mechanincs and how to apply them effectively, etc.

 

And is not like we didnt have our share of easy input games in the past, like the DBZ Budokai series, so is an experimentation that has happened for years up to now, and the perception about fgs still persist.

Edited by Hecatom
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Gasarocky Level 8

Gasarocky

Posted
Posted (edited)

Also just that things like spacing and the importance of not immediately intuitive things like doing nothing is not really taught by like, almost any single player game to a level where it's needed to succeed.

 

MH combat fundamentals are super focused on positioning (spacing) but that's not necessary to finish most hunts of you bring enough healing items, traps, or friends to help make it easier.

 

In a fighting game, the like, game with in the game is something that most gamers are just not even really aware of. You have to already be super mastery-minded to find those things on your own in most games. In fighting games you end up coming face to face with those ideas much sooner and probably only as you're just barely getting used to controlling your own character

Edited by Gasarocky
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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted

Yo know what is funny, i remember joking about all of those back in the days of ol SRK, when Examu announced Daemon Bride, i said in a few years games will be directional + special button for moves and full of autocombos and people were dismayed and said i shouldnt joke about shit like that.

 

Damn, why i cant predict the numbers of the lottery instead of shit like this 😅

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Hecatom said:

Now i am inclined to ask, why do you think that SFIV is more technical than MVC3?

 

If we were to define a game being technical, it would be that it requires certain level of skill from part of the player involving techniques and knowledge of the game to be proficient on it.

I think both games require a relative same amount of skill. Spacing, confirming, defense, everything that is fundamental to playing a fighting game. To me, technical does not equal skill since it's about using the techniques within a game. How you use the techniques might be related to skill somehow but generally, application and knowledge aren't the same thing. So if you disagree with me, it's just semantics at this point. A game can not have any techniques or technicality (Divekick, Footsies, SFV lololol) and still require a ton of skill. Therefore, I don't equate skill with being technical.

 

 I think the technical aspects behind both games are vastly different. Street Fighter 4 was jokingly called OS fighter 4 for a reason. Transition frames, backdashing, proximity guard, buffering on whiff/hit, etc. These were all things that had to be utilized at the higher level of play. There's a few of them listed in this thread , but there are so many character specific options for neutral, offense, defense, special situations (such as Rose spiral orbs)... there are many different ways to cover your options. Some characters it felt like they were playing the game for you lol.

 

This does happen in Marvel 3 but not anywhere near to the same extent as sf4. Mvc3 was it's own kind of messed up bs where you had a comeback mechanic that could be popped at anytime and destroy an entire team in 10 seconds. While there was some OS such as pope select, the game in general I feel was not played with OS in mind. If you got hit, you either A) weren't blocking B) got thrown because you were blocking C) were blocking the wrong direction or D) put into a literal unblockable situation that you can't escape. Compared to SF4, you could be on defense and use the normal universal mechanics of the game (Block, backdash, neutral jump, invincible move if you have one) and still be beat out entirely if the opponent understood how to use an option select technique to beat all of those options. SF4 Abel is a good example of having a delayed cr.lk os that cover backdash, teched throws, and jumping away.

 

2 hours ago, Hecatom said:

As for this, i understand wanting the games you like to be bigger, but tbh, i am not sure that the community will benefit of becoming more esports, outside a small number of top players getting more payouts for participating on the events, and i am not alone on that.

Not to mention that it feels kinda wrong the idea of Capcom capitalizing on what the community has done.

I actually agree with this. I was more so making an observation of what they missed out on and maybe tapping into that spectator sport thing we were talking about earlier. Having a game rely on eatsports is cringe and sad. I think they basically did that with SF4 towards the end there with Capcom Cup and CPT, but it definitely felt like the heart was still there.

 

I think I remember Riot did that press release where they wanted Valorant to be grassroots first for a bit, see if it was profitable potentially, and then go eatsports? I think they called it the Ignition series and it basically made everyone else do the work to promote their game lol scummy

Edited by elliephil
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Sonichuman Level 18

Sonichuman

Posted
Posted

Gamestop has some early Black Friday deals up

https://www.gamestop.com/deals?gclid=CjwKCAiAnO2MBhApEiwA8q0HYaUjQ_OY41aIe1Wpl-obHDADRrnSW8FXNQUlwzWXqc4KyLWp6z4gUhoCTtIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

There's some not bad deals in here surprisingly.

Deathloop 24.99, Guardians  29.99, Demon's Souls 39.82, Tales of Arise 39.99, RE8, 19.99, Lost Judgment P@5 29.99. GoTsu PS5 49.99, Miles Moreles PS4 29.99, Demon Slayer 34.99, Far Cry 6 49.99, BotW 26.99, Paper Mario 26.99, Fire Emblem 26.99, Xenoblade DE 26.99, Astral Chain digital only 26.99, Splatoon 2 26.99, SMO 35.56, MUA3 49.94. 

 

Just a few of the things.  I might go scoop Demon Slayer and Guardians.

 

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Hecatom said:

And while i like mvc3 and prbotg, if we were to assume that the game will be as wild as the teaser showed, that would immediately turn off a lot of people.

Most dont  like being comboed to death, and it will be even worse by knowing that your opponent is not doing "complex" shit regardless if is true or not.

 

MvC3 had really cool character but some terrible ideas. The Power Rangers game is just a meme at this point. Everything is a ToD; its almost a parody of a team games.

 

The losing part of FGs is the hardest hurdle. Them getting rid of motions was going to happen. They probably had a big team discussing around how to get people to play a fighting game with a keyboard. Only way to really do it for the majority of people is to get rid of motions. Getting rid of motions was going to happen due to that.

 

But long term, RIP getting a big population for the game from people who play LoL.

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Hawkingbird Level 18

Hawkingbird

Posted
Posted

Some of the things that happen with demon negotiations is great. I talked to the giant paper demon and the dog shinigami in my party stepped in to do it in my stead. He put in a good word for me but the guy didn't end up joining. Got a kick ass item for it though. I want to see more of that.

 

I sided with Lilm over principality. Letting succubi into Tokyo won't lead to anything going wrong. One of them said they love humans. It will be fine.

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RSG3 Level 18

RSG3

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, Sonero said:

The riot fighter looks cool. Only problem is that they can't really fix the biggest issue with FGs: losing in FGs is inherently unfun.

 

Its even worse is that they made it a team game. Team games with assists make it even easier to cave somebody's head in. Which means they are going to speed run people into hating how they lost a game.

 

 

So....League of Legends then? Cuz investing 45 min to an hour into a game and losing is super duper fun to lol. 

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MillionX Level 16

MillionX

Posted
Posted

I checked on Outriders last night after the big update...and hell yeah it's good to go.  

Finally, you can truly customize how your character looks with a proper transmog system--- you can make any helm look like another one, or any coat look like some other coat regardless of rarity or level, etc. etc.  More games need to have this kind of customization.  It fixes the problem that occurs when you tie stats to clothing/armor, so the player can still choose how they look regardless of what items have the best stats.

 

Expeditions--- big change-up here with the timer being gone by default.  Apparently it's still an option if for some reason you want it to be timed....but yeah, it's no longer a requirement to get "Gold rank" times and all that just to truly beat the expedition and get the rewards.  The difficulty is still there with how strong the enemies are and whether or not your character build is good enough to hang with it. (haha JUICY damage on that last one; I had over 100 mil total damage... 48 million just from FASER Beam)

 

There's also some new areas for expeditions; I haven't tried those yet.

 

This is about 99% of what I wanted at this point, in terms of changes.  My only wish now would be if they could make the game playable offline too... I realize there is sadly zero chance of that happening though.

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

So....League of Legends then? Cuz investing 45 min to an hour into a game and losing is super duper fun to lol. 

 

You can fit in hella fighting game Ls in one hour. In LoL, on the other hand, you can spend an hour losing and blame other people for it. Getting over the "Wow i'm getting my head caved in day and day out" barrier is the biggest hurdle in FGs.

 

The thing they don't mention about LoL though, is that you also have a large segment of people who essentially play the CPU. They log in, have hella skins, and all they do is join others in playing against the CPU set on easy and feeling good about their time playing. FGs are not all that good about delivering that experience either.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Sonero said:

 

MvC3 had really cool character but some terrible ideas. The Power Rangers game is just a meme at this point. Everything is a ToD; its almost a parody of a team games.

 

The losing part of FGs is the hardest hurdle. Them getting rid of motions was going to happen. They probably had a big team discussing around how to get people to play a fighting game with a keyboard. Only way to really do it for the majority of people is to get rid of motions. Getting rid of motions was going to happen due to that.

 

But long term, RIP getting a big population for the game from people who play LoL.

 

I can see Riot doing some cross game things that by playing Project L you unlock stuff on LoL and vice versa to assure that there is at least some movement on the game in case it doesnt pan out as they expect.

 

Also, tbh, i think this game can end being really disruptive and not in the good way if it manages to do good numbers.

Between Riot being control freaks of their scenes and the business practices to business models and a major push towards more and more simplification, which i dont mind having simple games but i kind of do when every game is trying to be simplified.

 

Also, something i was talking with my "lil" brother, is that if it manages to get 1% of the LoL population into playing it, the game will be huge.

If that happens, it would be nice if they overlap into other fgs, hopefully is not the most toxic playerbase that do the crossover XD.

Edited by Hecatom
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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

That's an odd thing to me, Smash kids seem desperate to name moves and techniques. 

Bro, you dont have idea.

They are not only desperate of naming tech, they are also desperate on creating tier lists based on the dumbest shit.

 

Like, when the 1st BlazBlue came out, we had smashers on SRK and DL creating tier lists placing characters on whatever spot they liked based on the dumbest reasonings, on day 3 or shit like that.

It was a fun read, specially when they went into the defensive when people called the stupidity of the tier list.

 

Or when they made a "combo" trying to name it and shit like that.

 

It also happened a lot during the SF4 release dates, where some dude found out about Kara Cancels and was quick to try to name the tech with his name, lol.

Edited by Hecatom
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RSG3 Level 18

RSG3

Posted
Posted
49 minutes ago, Sonero said:

You can fit in hella fighting game Ls in one hour. In LoL, on the other hand, you can spend an hour losing and blame other people for it. Getting over the "Wow i'm getting my head caved in day and day out" barrier is the biggest hurdle in FGs.

It isn't about which is worse, it's that no one likes investing long stretches of time into something only to lose. My brother plays fighters and MOBAs and I watch him get equally pissed off losing at both. 

 

For me personally losing a match is way easier to swallow and move on from then a whole fucking hour of work only to to catch an L anyway. That makes me wanna stop playing at all. 

 

But that's me man. 

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
Just now, RSG3 said:

It isn't about which is worse, it's that no one likes investing long stretches of time into something only to lose. My brother plays fighters and MOBAs and I watch him get equally pissed off losing at both. 

 

For me personally losing a match is way easier to swallow and move on from then a whole fucking hour of work only to to catch an L anyway. That makes me wanna stop playing at all. 

 

But that's me man. 

 

Reminds me when i was doing Raids on the 1st weeks with my friends on Destiny 1, wasting like 8 hours each try just to not be able to finish them, good times 🥴

 

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-PVL93- Level 13

-PVL93-

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Sonichuman said:

kojima-productions-launches-new-film-tv-and-music-division

so kojima finally gets to do what he actually wanted all these years - truly cinematic experiences

Death Stranding would've worked so much better as a movie or a season-long TV series than whatever the fuck the game actually was. Skip all the amazon delivery boy shit and just get to the story elements

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