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Street Fighter 6 Lounge: The FGC has a crack problem.

misterBee

By misterBee
in Fighting Game Discussion

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TWINBLADES Level 15

TWINBLADES

Posted
Posted
23 hours ago, Sonero said:

Both of the outfits are fine. Not really sure wtf is it that people are taking issue with here.

If I was playing a modern fighting where most of the cast was in causal wear and the one black person was in African tribal gear with a spear I would be annoyed. Miguel from T7 and most of the Latino representation in KoF are characters that look cool but just so happen to be Latino. I think there's ways of creating "ethnic" characters without having to go really hard into regressive stereotypes even if you really really want to signal that the character is African/Native American/Latino etc. I'm not saying that any motif that is connected to some sort of cultural artifact is problematic but we live in a modern world where peoples identities  are much broader than whatever cultural legacy exists within their heritage. Like we don't see Native Americans in tight leather wielding katanas, it's always tribal paint and tomahawks. 

 

Also to the argument about how new fighting game designs are too busy. I sort of agree but I also think allot of character designs had to be simple back in the day due to limited technology. It makes since that Ryu or Sim look as simple as they do. And they've been ingrained into the cultural zeitgeist so that's who we compare new designs to. But I think if Ryu was the new character he'd probably looks just as busy as ED looked in SFV. Granted I still feel like SF designs still carry a level of stylistic integrity that doesn't feel nearly as repulsive as Game Freaks modern designs philosophy which in my opinion is absolutely devoid of any soul. 

 

And before Hecatom gives me a thumbs down, no I'm not saying that all instances of a cultural signifier are heckin racist. No not all attempts at creating these characters is rooted in heckin racism. No I don't think the OG SF2 cast was made with malice and I also think Capcom has done a good job of fleshing them out and making them even cooler IE: SFV/6 Sim.

 

I still love you Hecatom<3 

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, TWINBLADES said:

If I was playing a modern fighting where most of the cast was in causal wear and the one black person was in African tribal gear with a spear I would be annoyed. Miguel from T7 and most of the Latino representation in KoF are characters that look cool but just so happen to be Latino. I think there's ways of creating "ethnic" characters without having to go really hard into regressive stereotypes even if you really really want to signal that the character is African/Native American/Latino etc. I'm not saying that any motif that is connected to some sort of cultural artifact is problematic but we live in a modern world where peoples identities  are much broader than whatever cultural legacy exists within their heritage. Like we don't see Native Americans in tight leather wielding katanas, it's always tribal paint and tomahawks. 

 

Also to the argument about how new fighting game designs are too busy. I sort of agree but I also think allot of character designs had to be simple back in the day due to limited technology. It makes since that Ryu or Sim look as simple as they do. And they've been ingrained into the cultural zeitgeist so that's who we compare new designs to. But I think if Ryu was the new character he'd probably looks just as busy as ED looked in SFV. Granted I still feel like SF designs still carry a level of stylistic integrity that doesn't feel nearly as repulsive as Game Freaks modern designs philosophy which in my opinion is absolutely devoid of any soul. 

 

Think if you're from an area that has people look similarish to what Lily looks like, it doesn't really strike you as racist. She doesn't have something from any single tribal affiliation. She's more of an amalgamation of different groups.  Its honestly way better that T-Hawk and anybody associated with that part of Capcom not be directly related to an existing tribe. You'd have way more issues with depicting things properly from a tribe than otherwise. The "poncho" style dress obviously draws inspiration from stuff, her other shirt is:

 

image.png.e249c041b5331fdeff6f6e8e049580fb.png

 

It isn't something that is outside of the realm of imaginations. Mind you that the one Lily is wearing is way nicer than that.  But that one isn't a stretch. The one that looks more of something that her tribe would wear still. Its a lot more plain that what some tribes would actually do for themselves but not really bordering on offensive in the least (think the designs underestimate who the craft people are in the tribes).

 

As for the tomahawk and always depicting them in a certain way...The issue here is that there are hundreds of tribes. They all didn't fight with the same weaponry or dress the same way. Unless you pick a tribe and copy them faithfully, you'll be doing something that feels stereotypish. Up to the tribal members to decide whether or not its offensive. But you'll also have bound to have some tribal members that are just hype to have somebody present their background in some type of positive light. Maybe T.Hawk can't be exactly salvaged in a positive way, but you can sort of mulligan the idea and do better.

 

As for character designs being visually messy,

 

The issue is more of how the characters are made than anything else. If you have to the draw the guy 3,000 times for a full moveset, you're going to chill on how much detail you want. But with 2.5D, you make the model the way you want and then that's that for the most part. There's a lot of stuff you aren't constantly redrawing with the way they do the characters now. Which means they can add a whole lot of additional stuff to how a character looks. How much you like it is up to the person. I like plainer designs in some ends personally. Otherwise you end up in ArcSys territory with 20 billion belts and other weird shit going on with characters.

image.png

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TWINBLADES Level 15

TWINBLADES

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Sonero said:

 

Think if you're from an area that has people look similarish to what Lily looks like, it doesn't really strike you as racist. She doesn't have something from any single tribal affiliation. She's more of an amalgamation of different groups.  Its honestly way better that T-Hawk and anybody associated with that part of Capcom not be directly related to an existing tribe. You'd have way more issues with depicting things properly from a tribe than otherwise. The "poncho" style dress obviously draws inspiration from stuff, her other shirt is:

 

image.png.e249c041b5331fdeff6f6e8e049580fb.png

 

It isn't something that is outside of the realm of imaginations. Mind you that the one Lily is wearing is way nicer than that.  But that one isn't a stretch. The one that looks more of something that her tribe would wear still. Its a lot more plain that what some tribes would actually do for themselves but not really bordering on offensive in the least (think the designs underestimate who the craft people are in the tribes).

 

As for the tomahawk and always depicting them in a certain way...The issue here is that there are hundreds of tribes. They all didn't fight with the same weaponry or dress the same way. Unless you pick a tribe and copy them faithfully, you'll be doing something that feels stereotypish. Up to the tribal members to decide whether or not its offensive. But you'll also have bound to have some tribal members that are just hype to have somebody present their background in some type of positive light. Maybe T.Hawk can't be exactly salvaged in a positive way, but you can sort of mulligan the idea and do better.

 

As for character designs being visually messy,

 

The issue is more of how the characters are made than anything else. If you have to the draw the guy 3,000 times for a full moveset, you're going to chill on how much detail you want. But with 2.5D, you make the model the way you want and then that's that for the most part. There's a lot of stuff you aren't constantly redrawing with the way they do the characters now. Which means they can add a whole lot of additional stuff to how a character looks. How much you like it is up to the person. I like plainer designs in some ends personally. Otherwise you end up in ArcSys territory with 20 billion belts and other weird shit going on with characters.

image.png

Thank you for the good fait response Pertho. Much better than some people 😉

 

Maybe I was a bit to "woke" in my initial comment. I felt like Lili's first design was a bit regressive but like I said I do like her new design. And you're right about the tribe issue. It's a delicate balance and one that I'm sure Capcom has people go over before they 100% sign off on a non Japanese character. I think about Thunder in KI and how the devs took it upon themselves to actually get in touch with a tribe to help design the character. I don't think that should need to be a thing all the time but I don't see a downside to it either. And what you said about how characters are designed now is something I didn't really process but it makes allot of sense. Seems super obvious in hindsight.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, TWINBLADES said:

Thank you for the good fait response Pertho. Much better than some people 😉

 

Just letting you know that I gave you a dislike because you keep whining about getting them, I didn't even read your post 🤣

 

Edited by Hecatom
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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, TWINBLADES said:

Maybe I was a bit to "woke" in my initial comment. I felt like Lili's first design was a bit regressive but like I said I do like her new design. And you're right about the tribe issue. It's a delicate balance and one that I'm sure Capcom has people go over before they 100% sign off on a non Japanese character. I think about Thunder in KI and how the devs took it upon themselves to actually get in touch with a tribe to help design the character. I don't think that should need to be a thing all the time but I don't see a downside to it either. And what you said about how characters are designed now is something I didn't really process but it makes allot of sense. Seems super obvious in hindsight.

 

In the case of Chief Thunder, I believe he had a previous tribal affiliation. Ringing them up and letting them be part of the process is just a good idea. If they say no, you scrub his story and retcon out of respect. Its kinda silly that doing some basic respectful shit is suddenly "woke".

 

I don't think your take was necessarily woke either. The problem is that there have been so many bad faith attempts, cultural misunderstandings or a combination of the two that sometimes its hard to figure out where something is coming from. Representation matters for a lot. Representation matters for a hell of a lot. Some people wanna claim it doesn't. Bet you if Tekken 8 has a Pakistani character that all of Pakistan is going to be extra hype for it.

 

After you decide on that then its about avoiding tokenizing a character. We're way better off looking to cultures for inspiration and wanting to do right by them than some of the stuff they did before. Japan loves using stuff from other cultures. They also love bastardizing those things. But if it can move forward in a more respectful way, everybody wins.

 

Lily is cute, young, gonna be a in new video game looking awesome. She may not belong to any one tribe, but if you know you can pinpoint to a lot of stuff from different places done pretty well. The effort is worth a lot, imo.

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
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Posted
5 hours ago, Sonero said:

 

 

Last time I went into an arcade with 3s I got on the machine and the guy asked if I had ever played before.

 

"A few times."

 

"Oh, well I've been playing since the start of the pandemic on something called FightCade so I'm pretty good, just warning you."

 

He left after two games lol.

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CESTUS III Level 15

CESTUS III

Posted
Posted

  

 

Random stuff

Just seen for the first time Ken's walk in

Cool to see they gave him classic Wanderlei exercise to loose wrists (wich was kinda recognizable for MMA fans back to Pride FC days) before a match, is funny considering Wandy was super aggressive striker too

Do you like Wanderlei Silva? | Sherdog Forums | UFC, MMA & Boxing Discussionhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maxvhz6fHj1rr8wbto1_500.gif

 

Btw crack me up they gave him blond beard, when we know he's not blond

Original SF6 Ken even had a bit of black hair (to hint it's a bit he's away from home and can't follow usual dying routine? lol)

Ken and Cammy are in action as part of the Street Fighter 6 gameplay leaks | Entertainment WorldWide News

Disappeared in current updated version

4 nouveaux (anciens) persos et une bêta fermée pour Street Fighter 6

 

 

Probably real reason he's punching Ryu there, must have said "Bro everybody know you're 3/4 jap and not blond"

Ken's angry "shut up!" now make sense... may be framed for crimes, but hair dye get him mad 😆

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted (edited)

I don't mind this Ken theme. I like the trap drums with the guitar. Fun and new while still showcasing some of Ken's attitude.

 

I am hoping most of these songs are designed to work with the ambient sounds in-game. I'm not really a fan of most of these tracks. Seem too simple or awkward sounding to me.

 

 

Edited by elliephil
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