The Street Fighter V Thread

[misterBee]

47 minutes ago, Shakunetsu said:

What made KOF better than SF is having consistency and coherence at least in the character design unlike what happpened in SFV, SF4 and MVCi

SNK changed their art style quite frequently.  I would say their portrayals of characters changed more times than Capcom's did over the years.

 

Here's official art of Blue Mary from 2000, 2001, and 2003:

Spoiler

 

 

 

Characters' proportions and faces changed all the time due to the use of different styles, and character portraits/win pose art changed a lot from year to year.

 

The only thing that didn't change much every year were the in-game sprites, and that was probably for logistical reasons.  You can bet that if they had the time/money to redraw the sprites for every game they probably would have.

[KingTubb]

40 minutes ago, Mattatsu said:

Well, she has big hands

Bruh, that's an understatement. The woman has sails for hands, if she catches the wind right, she could make it from Miami to Havana in 90 minutes 

[Shakunetsu]

1 hour ago, Mattatsu said:

Well, she has big hands... maybe she’ll have big feet too?

 

It's what SFV design aim too, those large hands and feat are intentional 

 

The reason of the design is for the players/users to easily see the register the punches and kicks they throw at the opponent

 

They mentioned that in the SFV making in a convention/seminar

 

Yet it is not SFV first idea  (It's also in SF4)

 

It's also was  SNK that came first than them 

 

 

 

It was a workaround to the problems of other fighting games in handhelds

 

but as years gone by users interaction drops even in large screens. So they turn thing simpler and easy to visualize. 

 

 

It wasn't even present in previous handhelds games of SNK not other like Capcom

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Skort said:

Well, ofc art is subjective. Some may like it others won't but i really like how pretty much all ArcSys games look visually. Made a great entry into the 3D era while still capturing that old school feel. Characters look as they should and i love it. I wouldn't mind a SF 6 in that style.

 

Yes. because ArcSys custom engine is dedicated to 2D fighters which makes it the new standard for best for 2D fighter animation like special moves and supers.

 

And this why 2D fighters can't go too semi-realism like Tekken because of those things.

 

Me too I would like Sf6 on that style but I won't be surprise if they would go for the recent Devil May Cry engine.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Shakunetsu

[Shakunetsu]

40 minutes ago, misterBee said:

SNK changed their art style quite frequently.  I would say their portrayals of characters changed more times than Capcom's did over the years.

 

Here's official art of Blue Mary from 2000, 2001, and 2003:

 

 

What I mean was the in-game visuals in modern fighters for Capcom specifically the "facial structures"  in 3d model for iconic characters.

 

while those example were art style by the artist and those were portraits

 

The first one was from Shinkiro, then Nona and the last one was from Falcoon 

 

For example that's how Shinkiro design is always consistent even with his work with Capcom

 

 

 

There are tons of inconsistency with the sprites, artwork and portraits back in the day with Capcom or SNK.

 

Yet SNK has Shinkiro most of the time that it makes his artstyle the rendition of classic KOF

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Shakunetsu

[HeavensCloud]

1 hour ago, Skort said:

I don't want  to be negative but the art style for the new KOF still feels kinda off to me the same way KOF 14 felt. Should stick to the old format or try something similar to what ArcSys did maybe .  I don't feel that they transitioned to well into the 3D part. Character models feel off, shading is all over the place ( yes i know its WIP but still )  and just looks kinda bland.  I do hope it ends up being a good title though.

The graphics to me look like a slightly updated version of Samsho.  I was generally happy with how that game looked so I can't complain about XV.  

 

In a sense I do agree with you though.  It would have been kind of nice if they took a chance on something that looked drastically different from the norm.  

[Skort]

So i said earlier that i would make Cyberpunk / Tron inspired wallpaper with Juri using her Mech costume, and i did. 

 

- Placed and posed models

- added glow effects , subsurface scattering 

- metallic tint

- HDRI render

- about 2000 samples render

- etc 

 

And i made this 😮  

 

 

@AriesWarlock in case you miss it !

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Skort

[Hecatom]

9 hours ago, ZioSerpe said:

I'm gonna put aside my hate for the fact this thread is once again just a general fighting games thread (which exists, in these forums btw and unlike SRK it's not hidden and hard to find in a million of pointless categories)

I checked out SRK forums, all the threads in the SF part are indeed basically abandoned, except one.

The fuck is wrong with the people of the story thread (still no idea why it is called story thread after reading parts of it)

Like i already said, niggas should just accept that this is the FG general, and create an actual DFV thread so that one is abandoned and we can continue our business as usual lol

[Hecatom]

8 hours ago, BornWinner said:

The dumbest thing about this is the no rule 34 thing. 
 

Capcom: No , you can’t make horny fanart or mods using our characters.

 

Also Capcom: Here’s Chun Li wearing a skintight outfit of our horneist character and Menat barely wearing anything.

They are on a road for a rude awakening when they find they cant enforce most of those rules.

Not even nintendo who is C&D happy do that, lol.

[Hecatom]

4 hours ago, Mattatsu said:

@KingTubbyou have the newer samurai shodown on PS4 right? I just realized it’s 40% off until January 20th (the day the world ends).

 

I’m not 100% sure I’ll grab it as money is tight right now and playing video games isn’t a huge priority for me at this time, but I’ve been waiting for this shit to go on sale since release and I finally caught it... I know I’ll likely play it once or twice and never touch it again, but it does look like it’s more up my alley, as long as our connections are okay... also, I’m not sure how into it you’d be, or anyone else in the US/Canada for that matter.

You and @KingTubbcan add me and others on the Samsho thread if you want, if our connections are good we can always play each other 🙂

[Hecatom]

2 hours ago, misterBee said:

SNK changed their art style quite frequently.  I would say their portrayals of characters changed more times than Capcom's did over the years.

 

Here's official art of Blue Mary from 2000, 2001, and 2003:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Characters' proportions and faces changed all the time due to the use of different styles, and character portraits/win pose art changed a lot from year to year.

 

The only thing that didn't change much every year were the in-game sprites, and that was probably for logistical reasons.  You can bet that if they had the time/money to redraw the sprites for every game they probably would have.

He is talking about how the art style of KOF XV seems like an iteration of KOF XIV.

Also, while is true that old KOFS had drastic changes in artstyle for posters and portaits and other additional media, the games kept being consistent because how they kept reusing and iterating on the sprites, with only some chars having some drastic changes like Athena and Yuri.

 

KOF XV as he said feels like a consistent transition from what KOFXIV did, unlike SFV from SFIV, and MVCI from MVC3 and when compared to the SF games.

[Darc_Requiem]

3 hours ago, Skort said:

I don't want  to be negative but the art style for the new KOF still feels kinda off to me the same way KOF 14 felt. Should stick to the old format or try something similar to what ArcSys did maybe .  I don't feel that they transitioned to well into the 3D part. Character models feel off, shading is all over the place ( yes i know its WIP but still )  and just looks kinda bland.  I do hope it ends up being a good title though.

 

I much prefer the style of old games such as this.  

 

I absolutely despise KOFXIII's artstyle. They fucked up some many characters. Give me the actual old sprites.  Shit like this is unforgivable.

[Skort]

1 minute ago, Darc_Requiem said:

I absolutely despise KOFXIII's artstyle. They fucked up some many characters. Give me the actual old sprites.  Shit like this is unforgivable.

The backgrounds look nice as most characters as well in my opinion. 

 

Regarding the character you posted, well every game has it's  SFV Ibuki or SFV Ken so it would seem. Her head is about 1.5 bigger than it should be and they forgot to give her a neck.

[GreatDarkHero]

What I am really wondering about for KOFXV is how the mechanics will be set up (and I can say that for most others on this forum). 

 

I hope there will be a bit more emphasis on heavy-hitting normals and spacing. Max Mode is still likely to remain as a thing, still taking influence from 02UM BC combos. 

Yet, to offset this, there should be a system where players can switch from "Advanced" to "Extra" and so on like they could on KOF98/KOF98UM. 
(In KOF98UM the "Extra" mode was more useful in that game, due to an oversight in the original game).

 

In this case, we the players can utilize mechanics from previous games, if they want to opt out of the current one that is in play. 

 

- No "auto-combos"
Reason: Because, they were practically useless. Most KOF players (like myself) actually *FORGOT* they were even in KOFXIV! There were some galaxy-brains that were foolishly trying to implement the mechanic. 

 

- Retain the *Just Defend* mechanic from Garou, that was reintroduced in KOFXIV (in a variation. Because, it was directly *called* Just Defend in context of XIV). 
Have the user not take any chip damage when using it and reward the player with a bit more meter. 

 

- Keep the characters airborne on backdashes on Frame 1. 

 

... I'll... come up with something else when I get done driving home.

[Shakunetsu]

4 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Yeah I dislike also the inconsistency with character design here especially with Ralph

 

 

[misterBee]

2 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

What I mean was the in-game visuals in modern fighters for Capcom specifically the "facial structures"  in 3d model for iconic characters.

35 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

He is talking about how the art style of KOF XV seems like an iteration of KOF XIV.

Also, while is true that old KOFS had drastic changes in artstyle for posters and portaits and other additional media, the games kept being consistent because how they kept reusing and iterating on the sprites, with only some chars having some drastic changes like Athena and Yuri.

 

KOF XV as he said feels like a consistent transition from what KOFXIV did, unlike SFV from SFIV, and MVCI from MVC3 and when compared to the SF games.

KOF is a bit weird because they had to re-use sprites all the time out of necessity. If art/style consistency is what they really wanted then they wouldn't bother coming up with new promo/character/portrait art every time.  Shinkiro drew all the art for the early games, but later on it's clear they wanted a more modern pop look and feel to their characters.

 

I don't think it's a big deal if from iteration to iteration characters change in look.  In the Alpha series Ryu is super anime, in SF3 he got buff, in SF4 he looks like a gorilla, etc.  I don't think he has to be drawn/rendered the same in every game -- it would make things super boring.  New series should give chars new looks and proportions to keep things from feeling too similar.

 

Old KOFs were heavily criticized for sprite re-use, and I think KOF XV will get some criticism for looking too similar to XIV, which didn't look great to begin with.  I don't buy that the art for a new game should be similar to the art from the older games.  I would much rather see new takes and styles every time than re-hashing of what has already been done.

 

There are gonna be hits and misses when you attempt a new art direction, but it's better than playing it safe and worrying about making every character too similar to the way they were before.

[GreatDarkHero]

 

[BornWinner]

5 minutes ago, GreatDarkHero said:

Apparently, the parry-er has to parry the last hit backwards in order for Chun to get the jump. So it can only be done in corner which was not possible on that Evo moment

 

 

[Darc_Requiem]

59 minutes ago, Skort said:

The backgrounds look nice as most characters as well in my opinion. 

 

Regarding the character you posted, well every game has it's  SFV Ibuki or SFV Ken so it would seem. Her head is about 1.5 bigger than it should be and they forgot to give her a neck.

Why can I watch movies on Mai's forehead? Art style was a complete turn off. Especially with SNK's pedigree. 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Darc_Requiem

[Shakunetsu]

39 minutes ago, misterBee said:

I don't think it's a big deal if from iteration to iteration characters change in look.  In the Alpha series Ryu is super anime, in SF3 he got buff, in SF4 he looks like a gorilla, etc.  I don't think he has to be drawn/rendered the same in every game -- it would make things super boring.  New series should give chars new looks and proportions to keep things from feeling too similar.

 

 

To begin with.

 

I was specifically pointing out the "facial structure" inconsistency in modern fighters by Capcom from aging and design. 

 

Which makes them look like they are cosplaying the character instead of being the character.

 

I have said earlier it's not about the art style and visual style has nothing to do with this.

 

And I was point about the 3d models so it's not also about the sprites or portraits. 

 

Lee is also Violet and Batsu is not Vatsu
 

What is important with the facial structure is that the character still looks like the same person even with different clothes or name.  

 

They should even be tell even with a very different hair style.

 

Like MVCi Chun li. It's like someone cosplaying as Chun li not the same Chun li. Compare to the bunch of low poly multiple version of SFEX Chun li,  The thing is in MVCi they tried to replace and altered the facial structure/features/detail of establish of that know character.

 

So even if she is named Chun li, known as Chun li, has the same headgear of Chun li and wear very Chunli clothes. She doesn't look like Chun li in MVCi.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Shakunetsu

[Skort]

Just now, Darc_Requiem said:

Why can I watch movies on Mai's forehead? Art style was complete turn off. Especially with SNK's pedigree. 

 

You can watch movies on her forehead bro.

 

Imma stick to watching on her   ( • )( • )       

 

🤣 

 

Spoiler

I get your point though.

 

 

[Darc_Requiem]

47 minutes ago, Shakunetsu said:

Yeah I dislike also the inconsistency with character design here especially with Ralph

 

 

Yeah, art is atrocious man....they beat my girl King with the ugly stick fam 😭

Edited January 8, 2021 by Darc_Requiem

[misterBee]

23 minutes ago, Shakunetsu said:

 

 

To begin with.

 

I was specifically pointing out the "facial structure" inconsistency in modern fighters by Capcom from aging and design. 

 

Which makes them look like they are cosplaying the character instead of being the character.

 

I have said earlier it's not about the art style and visual style has nothing to do with this.

 

And I was point about the 3d models so it's not also about the sprites or portraits. 

 

Lee is also Violet and Batsu is not Vatsu
 

What is important with the facial structure is that the character still looks like the same person even with different clothes or name.  

 

They should even be tell even with a very different hair style.

 

Like MVCi Chun li. Compare to the bunch of low poly multiple version of SFEX Chun li, It's like someone cosplaying as Chun li not the same Chun li. The thing is they tried to replace and altered the facial structure of establish popculture characters.

 

There's no difference between an in-game sprite and a character model in terms of use in a fighting game.  They are both visual representations of a character.  You can change a character's appearance/facial structure regardless of whether you're working in 2D or 3D.

 

MvCI Chun Li's problem was that she was UGLY.  She and Dante came out looking like poor cosplayers because they simply weren't modeled well.  It wasn't facial structure that was the problem.  It was the fact that they were low quality models to begin with.  The fact that MvCI had poor art direction certainly didn't help things either.

 

For fighting game characters the costume and outfit is probably way more iconic than something specific like the facial structure of their 3D model.  Having Ryu's chin be a little less square next time around isn't going to automatically make people confused about who he is.

 

SFEX Chun Li doesn't look good because they somehow modeled her face in a specific way -- that model has so few polys she almost doesn't have a face at all.  The reason she looks good is because the art direction for that game was good (at least for the time).

 

Ugly art direction + poor models = ugly 'cosplay' characters.

Good art direction + good models = nice characters.

 

Minute details like facial structure are largely irrelevant, because it's more about the big picture in terms of artistic style and choice.  If a game has proper art direction they could make a SF game where everyone's face is a white square and you'd still be able to figure out who is who.

 

Think about fan art -- people draw characters using different styles all the time, oftentimes drawing the faces in wildly different ways.  That doesn't stop anyone from identifying them.  Rendering characters in 3D doesn't somehow change that.

[Shakunetsu]

2 minutes ago, misterBee said:

There's no difference between an in-game sprite and a character model in terms of use in a fighting game.  They are both visual representations of a character.  You can change a character's appearance/facial structure regardless of whether you're working in 2D or 3D.

 

 

Those were very surface level of judgement for saying there's no different with character model and sprites when both had very different visual impression, possibilities and flexibility. 

 

Yes they are both visual representation but pixel art and facial sculpt has different way in conveying patterns and visuals. 

 

That why it's not just the costume, name and facial structure is a valuable representation of the character specially in 3D.

34 minutes ago, misterBee said:

For fighting game characters the costume and outfit is probably way more iconic than something specific like the facial structure of their 3D model.  Having Ryu's chin be a little less square next time around isn't going to automatically make people confused about who he is

 

Yes it's iconic but in the age of modern 3D fighter Capcom should had already a well defined guidelines for facial structure, since they already had SF3 and SF2 which the recent games were set in-between those timelines. So they should had a reference, and those characters were already shown in multiple media sources for more than a decade, so they should also had a clear facial features to easily recognize the character.

 

The problem was they clearly trying to intentionally trying to change and experiment with the facial features instead of just doing what is already there. This is why they look different,

 

20 minutes ago, misterBee said:

SFEX Chun Li doesn't look good because they somehow modeled her face in a specific way -- that model has so few polys she almost doesn't have a face at all.  The reason she looks good is because the art direction for that game was good (at least for the time).

 

And that's were we going back to what I'm pointing out as the problem of Capcom modern 3D fighters...

 

which is consistency and coherence in facial structure because it's also part of art direction.

 

Whatever was wrong with MVCi Chun li it's not just simply ugly but looking VERY DIFFERENT from the rest of the Chun li

 

and being ugly  is not the same thing being "looking like a different person".   SF4 Chun li was ugly too

 

IIt's not just SFEX Chun li but also other 3D Chun li like for example MVCi to MVC3.

 

They can do it but they intentionally change the sculpt of the face. Which is an ongoing problem with Capcom

 

The new guys wants to change things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GreatDarkHero]

1 hour ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Why can I watch movies on Mai's forehead? Art style was a complete turn off. Especially with SNK's pedigree. 

 

Speaking of which, Masami is apparently doing another animation based on KOFXV as promotional material. 

 

For those who have been around the block long enough, Masami made it *very* clear that he enjoys Mai Shiranui and you'll see this in many of his works after the first Fatal Fury film. Hell, his obsession with the character damn near eclipses mine and I've been playing the character online and off for fucking decades! 

[BornWinner]

This one gif of Mai lived in my head rent-free for about five years when I was a kid. Very curious to see the short for KOF 15.

 

[HeavensCloud]

[misterBee]

1 hour ago, Shakunetsu said:

 

Those were very surface level of judgement for saying there's no different with character model and sprites when both had very different visual impression, possibilities and flexibility. 

 

Yes they are both visual representation but pixel art and facial sculpt has different way in conveying patterns and visuals.

This is simply not true. The fact that all characters start life as 2D renderings/concept art before any 3D models are even created should tell you something.  If we're talking about art direction and the creation of a character's look, 2D vs 3D has absolutely nothing to do with it.  You can decide on a character's face shape before you start modeling a single polygon.

 

1 hour ago, Shakunetsu said:

 

Yes it's iconic but in the age of modern 3D fighter Capcom should had already a well defined guidelines for facial structure, since they already had SF3 and SF2 which the recent games were set in-between those timelines. So they should had a reference, and those characters were already shown in multiple media sources for more than a decade, so they should also had a clear facial features to easily recognize the character.

The overall art-style and visual direction of a game is decided upon FIRST, then you draw the characters in a way that matches that overall direction.  There shouldn't be a manual of SF faces that every SF character must follow.  You have this backwards.  Teams decide on a certain look for the game as a whole, and then all characters in that game will be made to match that overall look. 

 

For example, if it is decided that the next SF will have a very soft, rounded look, everyone will have soft rounded faces.  It doesn't matter what kind of faces they had in past games, because past games aren't using the same overall style.

 

1 hour ago, Shakunetsu said:

Whatever was wrong with MVCi Chun li it's not just simply ugly but looking VERY DIFFERENT from the rest of the Chun li

 

and being ugly  is not the same thing being "looking like a different person".   SF4 Chun li was ugly too

 

IIt's not just SFEX Chun li but also other 3D Chun li like for example MVCi to MVC3.

 

They can do it but they intentionally change the sculpt of the face. Which is an ongoing problem with Capcom

 

The new guys wants to change things.

 

Chun Li's face changes in every game because every game has a different art style.  Again, you are thinking of things from the wrong direction.  Overall art style FIRST, specifics of each character SECOND.

 

MvCI has an ugly art style and Chun-Li came out ugly.  SF3 had quite a nice art style, and Chun-Li came out good.  Some people hate SF4's art style, and those are probably the people who will tell you that SF4 Chun is ugly.  I'm not one of those people, and I thought she looked fine in that game.

 

The character visuals are made to match the game.  The game visuals are not designed to match the characters.

 

You may not like how Capcom renders characters in its modern games, but it's not for the reasons that you think.  It's not about having a book of face shapes that has to be closely adhered to.  It's about their newer games having art styles that might not appeal to you.

 

It's not about 'new guys wanting to change things'.  Fighting game developers try out new art styles and rendering methods all the time, and that's not a bad thing.  You're simply not a fan of the choices they've made recently.

[BornWinner]

48 minutes ago, HeavensCloud said:

Maybe it could be a positive. Maybe this will be the first modern SNK game with rollback netcode. Or maybe it will be a Vita exclusive.

[GreatDarkHero]

1 hour ago, BornWinner said:

This one gif of Mai lived in my head rent-free for about five years when I was a kid. Very curious to see the short for KOF 15.

 

Imagine being ten while seeing this (in addition to seeing Mai on CVS1 for the *very* first time). 

 

That shit hit me differently when I was a young a lad. She was among the few reasons I kept going back into that damn arcade back then! And, my parents bought me the 2nd Fatal Fury movie on VHS a year after. 

[Darc_Requiem]

22 minutes ago, GreatDarkHero said:

Imagine being ten while seeing this (in addition to seeing Mai on CVS1 for the *very* first time). 

 

That shit hit me differently when I was a young a lad. She was among the few reasons I kept going back into that damn arcade back then! And, my parents bought me the 2nd Fatal Fury movie on VHS a year after. 

What did you do when you saw this though....

Edited January 9, 2021 by Darc_Requiem

[misterBee]

I didn't feel much of anything when I saw the SF2 animated movie as a kid, probably because I had already seen these in elementary school:

 

 

 

Chun didn't stand a chance.  🙃

[GreatDarkHero]

2 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

What did you do when you saw this though....

... 

 

...... 

 

.........

 

[JustBooming]

[faded 6 year old vhs of jessica rabbit.gif]

[Jocelot]

Lola Bunny had me feeling some sorta way as a kid watching Space Jam, I admit. 

[GreatDarkHero]

@Skort

I know you've already made a statement about this before. 

But, to speak about Juri Han in SFV: 

 

What kind of buffs would you suggest for that the character, aside from just damage buffs. 

(I do want to see some fireworks if Juri lands a combo with all of her resource, but without CC or a Jump In. At least 500 damage). 

 

But, in terms of frame data or property adjustments, what would you suggest specifically? 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by GreatDarkHero

[Pair of Rooks]

44 minutes ago, misterBee said:

I didn't feel much of anything when I saw the SF2 animated movie as a kid, probably because I had already seen these in elementary school:

 

 

 

Chun didn't stand a chance.  🙃

I saw both of those. Ninja Scroll and... idk. I recognize the box art.  

[Hecatom]

1 hour ago, GreatDarkHero said:

Imagine being ten while seeing this (in addition to seeing Mai on CVS1 for the *very* first time). 

 

That shit hit me differently when I was a young a lad. She was among the few reasons I kept going back into that damn arcade back then! And, my parents bought me the 2nd Fatal Fury movie on VHS a year after. 

Why do you think i became a hentai expert? 🤣

Seriously.

Since most of the animation here on latin america was anime, i grew up seeing a lot of anime that wasnt necesarily for kids (not hentai, but certainly with gratious nudity.)

By that time i was already doing my own drawings for the animes i watched, and since i was kind of a precocious child, i was also already drawing lewds for animes and video games, stuff like Gigi, Lady Oscar, etc.

Then i saw Sailor Moon, and it became more frequent lol.

I only learned about hentai when the friend of a cousin that was like a big brother to me told me that you could find nudes about the series if you searched by x series with hentai at the end.

 

Then the rest is history 🤣

[Hecatom]

Cursed

 

[Dayaan]

How do you guys hitconfirm in SFV? I mean on a personal level. What method do YOU use to hitconfirm? I'm finding a lot of success with the stun bar.

[Dayaan]

1 hour ago, Jocelot said:

Lola Bunny had me feeling some sorta way as a kid watching Space Jam, I admit. 

NGL the first time I watched that movie I thought Bugs would snap out of it and posterize her on the court with no remorse.

[Illwill88]

Not sure if it's already been posted but this is dope af.

 

 

[Shakunetsu]

5 hours ago, misterBee said:

This is simply not true. The fact that all characters start life as 2D renderings/concept art before any 3D models are even created should tell you something.  If we're talking about art direction and the creation of a character's look, 2D vs 3D has absolutely nothing to do with it.  You can decide on a character's face shape before you start modeling a single polygon.

Im just talking about facial structure on 3D model and Capcom is inconsistent with those.

 

That they are intentional changing the iconic faces of characters which cause fans backlash.

 

Yes they all start from 2D artwork before tranformed 3D models...

 

but in the case of Capcom Ryu, Ken and Chun li has been done in years. It's not a new character from scratch that the face needs to look like a different person every new game.

 

They should already had a consistency and firm reference available. This are recurring characters not just returning characters.

11 hours ago, misterBee said:

Characters' proportions and faces changed all the time due to the use of different styles, and character portraits/win pose art changed a lot from year to year.

 

The only thing that didn't change much every year were the in-game sprites, and that was probably for logistical reasons.  You can bet that if they had the time/money to redraw the sprites for every game they probably would have.

 

This is where the art direction comes into place regardless of the art atyle.  This wht it is very important.

 

Without proper art direction the characters will look differently from every artist who isn't a fan of the character or just working for the buck

 

This is where FANARTs comes into.Which a fan is doing a character wearing casual clothes are good example that this consistency and coherence is possible with facial structures regardless what they wear and who is the artist or style they applied.

 

Another thing is EDITORIAL CARTOONING and SUPER DEFORMED(SD) artwork which the face structure is important that would carry the deformity and weird physique

 

Thing change because they were either had terrible art direction or the people in charage intentionally wants to to be change.

 

What your saying about sprites isn't the  thing im pointing out with Capcom problem with inconsistency with their character faces in modern 3D fighters.

 

Facial structure is a valuable thing in 3D and for a company that has a popculture title.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Shakunetsu

[Dayaan]

 

[Mattatsu]

2 hours ago, Dayaan said:

How do you guys hitconfirm in SFV? I mean on a personal level. What method do YOU use to hitconfirm? I'm finding a lot of success with the stun bar.

A lot of people use the stun, but I can’t seem to trust myself enough to put my eyes on it (and take my eyes off the action) so I just look for the hitspark 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Mattatsu

[misterBee]

48 minutes ago, Shakunetsu said:

That they are intentional changing the iconic faces of characters which cause fans backlash.

 

Yes they all start from 2D artwork before tranformed 3D models...

 

but in the case of Capcom Ryu, Ken and Chun li has been done in years. It's not a new character from scratch that the face needs to look like a different person every new game.

 

You don't seem to understand what I am saying.  They aren't changing characters' faces because they feel like it, or to piss people off.  They simply design the characters in a way that match whatever game they are working on.  It is 100% dependent on the style of the game.

 

Here are different versions of Ryu from recent games:
 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

He has a different face shape in every game, but nobody is confused about who it is.  It's clearly Ryu. Changing his face shape did not make him unidentifiable.  Giving all of these versions the same jawline would not serve any purpose.

 

Not only does he have a different face shape, but he's rendered using different lighting styles, his muscles are modeled differently, and his clothes have different levels of wear/different textures.  In some games they want him to look younger.  In some games they want him to look older.  In some games they want him to look angrier.  All of these are choices made to fit the game that he is being added to.  Changing his face to match artistic goals is a good thing.

 

Art direction is making the characters fit the game you are making.  It's not about copy-pasting the same face over and over just to be consistent.

 

Giving Ryu the same exact face in every game isn't solving anything.  Instead of creating a version of Ryu that best matches the style/mood of the game, you would rather have them make him look the same every time.  That isn't helpful at all.

 

Some people do not like Smash Ryu.  Some people do not like SF4 Ryu.  Some people do not like SF5 Ryu.  Giving him the same face in every game will not make these people happy.  They are upset because they don't like certain versions of the character, not because it's inconsistent.  What if every Ryu had SF4 face?  It would be consistent, but people who don't like SF4 art would be unhappy forever.

 

Fans don't want 'consistency'.  They're just mad because the Ryu THEY like isn't being used over and over. A super strict style guide will not fix this, because different fans like different versions of the character anyway.

 

SF doesn't need some kind of super-strict face guide.  Different games will interpret Ryu differently, and that's ok.  People will come up with different versions of the character, and that's cool.  Blindly following some arbitrary rule forever isn't going to make the games better visually -- it will just make them incredibly boring.

 

And here are some 2D examples -- Alpha vs SF2:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

In Alpha he is younger, so they gave him a rounder face.  In SF2 they wanted the chars to have more extreme features, so his face is angular and long.  This is an example of different face shapes being used to create a different feel for a game.  Despite what you say, the principles are the same regardless if you are doing 2D or 3D.  3D doesn't make face shape matter more or less than it did before.

[Mattatsu]

I must confess. I  re-downloaded SFV with he intent to learn Gief, and yes, I hate myself.

[Shakunetsu]

47 minutes ago, misterBee said:

You don't seem to understand what I am saying.  They aren't changing characters' faces because they feel like it, or to piss people off. 

They do.

 

They do change because it's the art direction they want.

 

it's not technical, budget and skill. it's intentional other than facial structures they are even changing some animation in SFV.

 

Those Ryu portraits and some unused portraits are not the in-game facial structures. It's not just Ryu.  What the case with is just the least. Unlike Ken and Chun's MVCi case.

 

And what been said on Ryu doesn't applied into reason on what's with SFV Ken and Chun li in MVCi. Facial struture is about identity and individuality.

 

Fans want consistency in facial structure, Fans values facial structure because it's the most important defining trait of the characters in 3D models especially when there are costumes.

 

Like I said like "Fan"arts shows also that facial features can be consistent regardless the medium they are into.

 

It's poor excuse to say because it's handled by different artist so the character would look like very different people.

 

The changes in alpha, SF2 and SF3 were about "age" not inconsistency that make them look a different person because SFV and SF4 is set withing those timeline.  So it doesn't justify the issues with SFV Ken or MVCi Chun li.

 

This is triple a company with a huge budget and those characters were done multiple times so failing to have consistency in facial structure is an art direction issue because it failed to implement guidelines.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Shakunetsu

[Skort]

7 hours ago, GreatDarkHero said:

@Skort

I know you've already made a statement about this before. 

But, to speak about Juri Han in SFV: 

 

What kind of buffs would you suggest for that the character, aside from just damage buffs. 

(I do want to see some fireworks if Juri lands a combo with all of her resource, but without CC or a Jump In. At least 500 damage). 

 

But, in terms of frame data or property adjustments, what would you suggest specifically? 

 

  There many thing that Juri should have from S1 though Capcom failed to provide. The character is held back by tons of design oversight or straight out dumb decisions. 

 

 

Some of the changes in would like to see are the following ( ofc not all at the same time but some would be nice at least ) 

 

- starts the round with all 3 stores

 

- VS 1 , Juri can now cancel into her   v-trigger of her blocked  v-skill. Other characters can do this, why not her ?

 

- VS 1 - while charging it you should be able to double tap up and perform a neutral jump or double tap down  and remain on the spot. She is forced to either forward or backdash, forcing her in spots she may not want to be.It's treated like a focus attack when it really should not be.

 

- VS 2 , does not knock down , allow Juri to combo of it more than a few juggles from her dp. Extend the hitbox, shake about 5  frames at least from the charge requirement or completely remake it.She already has 3 things to store no need to add a 4th.

 

- VT 1 , drains way too fast from her chained normals for how much scaling it has. Juri can now also loop st hp mk fuha while in trigger.Can also combo oh her overhead , it was her thing why take it away ?

 

- VT 2 , either scrap it or allow Juri to do the kick she does upon activation several times so she can actually pressure with it. The idea of the trigger is to be in the face of your opponent, allow Juri to do this via this repressure tool.

 

- CA , shake off about 2 orb 3 frames from it's startup. Make it full screen.

 

- light fireball , 0 on block point blank range and plus 1 or 2 spaced ,true blockstring from her cr mk also, no reason not to.It's her thing, her main tool the core of her pressure and defense.Guile is spamming booms plus on block and Juri's fireball that requires store and it's not fullscreen is minus 2 ?

 

- EX fireballs ( stores ) , she needs 3 variants not just one. EX light double hit full screen fireball , EX medium fast overhead that she can combo of from, EX heavy the current one she has now.

 

- Ryodansatsu ( flip kick ) , can't be grabbed anymore at the very least.

 

- DP  , the first  hit of ex dp and medium has a suction effect so the opponent won' drop from it as it often does.

 

- DP light is not minus a gazillion on crouchers anymore ( it's really not a DP )

 

- She can now combo into her target combo of her medium fuha regardless of the crouch requirement.

 

- St.mp , add 1 more frame of plus frames, moves Juri forward also ( like her old fmp )

 

- B.HK , extend the hitbox up. It's the same normal as Urien's and Ryu's but unlike those it can hardly anti air, at best it trades. 

 

- CR.hp , extend the hitbox up.It's an ok move but it really looks like it should anti air better.

 

- more damage overall, Juri with stores needs to hurt a lot more. If she needs to manage them and gain them, the payoff needs to be worth it, it is not currently.

 

She is a solid character with enough work put into her but held back by design oversights be it intentional or not.

 

I doubt S5 will bring her much changes and to be honest this late into the game's life I honestly do not care anymore.

 

Here's hoping her redesign in SF 6 is far better because as a character she is cool as hell.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Skort

[misterBee]

3 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

It's poor excuse to say because it's handled by different artist so the character would look like very different people.

No, that is exactly the point.  If you ever buy the SF art books and look at all the SF-related art created throughout the past several decades, you will see that every artist draws the characters differently.  There is no "default" style that they are all forced to use.  Instead, every generation has an artist who puts their own spin on the characters, and the games try to follow new styles all the time.

 

You WANT new interpretations of characters.  You WANT fresh takes on things.

 

Even the same artist will draw a character differently after a long period of time, because artists evolve and change their styles constantly.  Bengus' SF2 characters don't look ANYTHING like his Alpha-series characters, and it's great.  Styles change, things progress.

 

Here are two versions of Ryu:

 

 

 

They look like two completely different people, and yet these are both classic pieces of art that few people would have a problem with.  Who cares if their face shapes are different?  They're both good, and they're both Ryu.  Face shape doesn't mean anything if the final product is good and represents the character well -- and this rule applies for 2D and 3D.

 

3 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

Those Ryu portraits and some unused portraits are not the in-game facial structures. It's not just Ryu.  What the case with is just the least. Unlike Ken and Chun's MVCi case.

 

And what been said on Ryu doesn't applied into reason on what's with SFV Ken and Chun li in MVCi. Facial struture is about identity and individuality.

Those Ryu shots are the in-game models. The SFV shot is literally a screenshot from the beginning of the round.  The Smash model they use for renders is the same one actually used in the game.  The MvC3 win pose is just a zoomed in version of the ingame model.  SF4 portraits are literally the ingame models but traced over.  I could find you actual gameplay screenshots and they would look the same as the pictures I showed.

 

All are different portrayals of the same character, and they all work.  Whether you like them or not is something else, but they don't need to all have the same face shape.

 

You really over-emphasize facial structure.  A lot more goes into a character than the bones of their face.  Posture, posing, body size, costume, voice, etc.  Interpretations of a character take a lot of different things into account.  Art style and direction are not 100% based around a character's face, and even if they were there's no rule that says it has to be the same in EVERY GAME.  You're so obsessed with faces and I don't know why.  It's like you have an obsession with Chun-Li's chin or something.

 

Are you focused on the characters looking good, or do you care more about whether the same face is used in every game?

 

3 hours ago, Shakunetsu said:

The changes in alpha, SF2 and SF3 were about "age" not inconsistency that make them look a different person because SFV and SF4 is set withing those timeline.  So it doesn't justify the issues with SFV Ken or MVCi Chun li.

You are so obsessed with cloning faces in every game that you ignore everything else.  Maybe for SF6 they will decide they want to change his face again because they want him to look cooler.  It doesn't even need a story reason!  As long as it comes out looking good who cares if his jawline is the same one from a previous game?

 

I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree because this face obsession really doesn't make any sense to me.  You said you liked SFEX, but in that game the faces are basically just squares! 

 

Sometimes devs are going to fail when they render a new version of a character, like SFV Ken.  It happens.  Sometimes ugly games like MvCI get made.  It happens.

 

The solution is to keep trying new things and new styles, and eventually get it right. Putting SF4 face models onto every character in every game doesn't solve anything.  "Consistency" isn't important. Having a game that looks good is important, and it doesn't matter what style you use to do it.

 

Instead of saying "SFV Ken came out bad.  Just use his SF4 face for everything!", why not just aim to do better next time?  How do you know that SF6 Ken won't have the best version of his face ever created?

 

TL;DR: Faces are not why games fail visually, and a face-shape style-guide isn't what is going to magically make a game look good.  A game's art direction is not 100% based on the jawlines of the characters.

[Shakunetsu]

Those two examples of Ryu is about a character being age, it's a 2d artwork portrait and it doesn't make it right for the wrong of SFV Ken and MVCi Chun li

 

It doesn't excuse Capcom for being terrible with there modern games facial structures in 3D models that they end up looking like cosplaying the character.

 

  

51 minutes ago, misterBee said:

No, that is exactly the point.  If you ever buy the SF art books and look at all the SF-related art created throughout the past several decades, you will see that every artist draws the characters differently. 

 

 

 

The artbooks is like the 2d portraits it does not excuse the poor rendition of facial structure in a 3D model's face to have lack of consistency and ended up looking like a entirely a different character. 

 

Regardless the artist style or the artist it doesn't make thing impossible to have consistency on facial structures in 3D models, because those were a different topics.

 

What fans want is the same character evolve in a way not a new character cosplaying like the character they want. 

 

50 minutes ago, misterBee said:

There is no "default" style that they are all forced to use.  Instead, every generation has an artist who puts their own spin on the characters, and the games try to follow that style.

 

There is numerous references as the most consistent look for a timeline of Chun li and Ken.

 

It's not impossible for an artist not to have a consistency with facial features and make them evolve right

 

because this is where the guidelines from Art Direction purpose comes into place. 

 

While I said earlier caricatures in editorial panel,  super deformed and especially fanarts  proves that it's not impossible because it can be done .

 

The problem is not on the generation but it's either on the sculpter/the 3d modeler and his art director. 

 

It's simply the lack of guidelines or the art director want to change something to align to his personal interest 

 

 

50 minutes ago, misterBee said:

You WANT new interpretations of characters.  You WANT fresh takes on things.

 

That's what makes it said that they handled thing poorly in art directions.

 

What fans want is the same character evolve in a way not a new character cosplaying like the character they want. 

 

I was talking with facial features inconsistency in in-game models, because of making them look like a different person cosplaying as those characters.

  

50 minutes ago, misterBee said:

You are so obsessed with cloning faces in every game that you ignore everything else.  Maybe for SF6 they will decide they want to change his face again because they want him to look cooler.  It doesn't even need a story reason!  As long as it comes out looking good who cares if his jawline is the same one from a previous game?

 

You get it wrong cloning and copy pasting faces is not the same thing of having consistency in facial features that they don't end up like cosplaying a character.

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, misterBee said:

They wanted to make Ryu look older in SF5, so they modeled him in a way that reflects that.  That was the style and choice they made, so they made a version of Ryu that matches their vision.

 

If you had your way, they would have said, "nope, sf4 Ryu is the only Ryu!  Copy+Paste his face for every game from now on!"

 

SFV and SF4 should be set before SF3.  SFV Ken doesn't look like part of an evolution of KEN and MVCi Chun li was nowhere to UMVC3 Chun li nor SF4 or SFV version of her. She looks entirely like a different character.

 

That's not what it and that not what consistency in facial features is. It's not about being Copy+Paste it's more about having similar facial structure that makes it the same person.

 

Consistency in Facial Features 3D models is not the same thing with Copy Paste.

 

 being Ugly is not the same thing that looking like a different person just cosplaying someone

 

And Aging/Evolution is not the same thing as looking like a different person just cosplaying someone

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Shakunetsu