The Street Fighter V Thread

[Darc_Requiem]

1 hour ago, Mr.Cipher said:

Ah yes, take the bait of Rose to set yourself up for a major disappointment.

 

It's like there hasn't been any lessons learned over the last 5 years with this game.

 

[Hecatom]

1 hour ago, KingTubb said:

Can you make it for me then? Cause guts seems needlessly convoluted to me. Like, I understand how it works, I just don't understand the "why" behind it

 

ALSO DOUBLE POST

Sorry, i have been busy with work, so i don't have enough free time to reply on the forums 😕

 

1st, It allows for a more varied way to handle the balance of the cast.

For starters.

FGS are asymethric games by design.

 

It is why you see that in many games you have chars having different health and stun values.

Guts allows it to do that but also allows it to have more options in how you do it.

 

It is not really the case in GG, but in AH3 there is a char that has negative Guts, where she takes more damage as her health gets lower.

Think about it as how Capcom balance chars with strong options like Akuma and Seth on SFIV by having them have less health than standard.

 

It allows to manage the characters beyond just adding extra health, or removing it, by allowing the char to be balanced around the flow of the match.

Characters like Chipp are allowed to grow more resilliant as the match progress, and in some cases be balanced around how many tools could be at their dispossal as the matches progresses.

 

Kind of like a dynamic balancing, where as the char grow stronger during the match because it has meter which gives the char access to better tools for example but has less health, it could have the guts reduced.

 

2nd It is a comeback mechanic.

The way that GG and other games handle it, allows characters to have different thresholds on where and how much guts values they have at different points.

A character like Chipp that has most of the time the lowest value, it has better guts once he has lower health.

 

Allowing to keep with the Aynchronous design that fgs are known for.

 

3rd Is a design choice based on the medium that GG is trying to emulate.

Keep in mind that GG and other games try to emulate what  you see on anime and manga, where you have character being able to fight back in the bring of being defeated.

 

This is a more subjective thing, but it allows to have more hype matches allowing for comeback without resorting to giving free tools to the losing player.

 

Then there is also a catharsys factor and other psychological things involved.

Since it creates an end game phase each round where the losing player is still not necesarily out of the fight yet, and the winning player still needs to consider his options.

 

Besides, even when is a mechanic that can affect the game, is not really intrussive once you have experience with the games that have them, to the point you don't really notice it because you internalize the flow of the game.

 

Edit

 

It also creates a dynamic flow.

For example, on P4A, the comeback mechanic is centered around e extreme version of guts where the chars also get extra bar and a extra super slot.

 

But due how the Guts work, you can essentially create scenarios where the opponent is not granted the comeback chance since you did a combo that killed him before the guts could kick in.

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Hecatom

[Mr.Cipher]

Guts might have it's place, but I really prefer simple health values.

 

My Character has 10k health, I know how much I can risk, Guts and Defence Values are nothing I can really work with on a wim.

[KingTubb]

40 minutes ago, Illwill88 said:

I'm trash at snk games period but getting the chance to play one on ps4 with good netcode is a instant cop for me.

Hey, I’m trash at everything. We should play 

[Mr.Cipher]

You realize that KoF02 runs on a Toaster from last Decade.

And it had the Rollback Update on PC since I think 2 months now?

[Illwill88]

5 minutes ago, KingTubb said:

Hey, I’m trash at everything. We should play 

For sure I'm not on much but we'll def get some games in

 

3 minutes ago, Mr.Cipher said:

You realize that KoF02 runs on a Toaster from last Decade.

And it had the Rollback Update on PC since I think 2 months now?

Yeah I'm aware but I don't have a half decent Windows PC at the house. We have an imac that my fiance uses. I dabbled in the couple games that could run on mac on fightcade. 

[Mr.Cipher]

My disappointment is immessurable.....

Ah well, should you get a PC, I'll be free to play, haven't played KoF in ages anyway.

[KingTubb]

4 minutes ago, Illwill88 said:

I'm aware but I don't have a half decent Windows PC at the house

Same here. This new console gen has made me realize that’s probably how it’ll stay

[Jocelot]

7 hours ago, BornWinner said:

 

If you see someone cry about this, call them a nerd and bully them with this button.

[Hecatom]

19 minutes ago, Mr.Cipher said:

Guts might have it's place, but I really prefer simple health values.

 

My Character has 10k health, I know how much I can risk, Guts and Defence Values are nothing I can really work with on a wim.

 

Real talk

Guts is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less intrussive than people like to think it is.

I understand the idea that it can be seem as convoluted, but is not really true.

 

Plus, tbh, all that thing that makes health values harder to read, or the gui more complicated is kind of nonsense.

 

This is very likely anectodical, but i feel that i only see it discussed in a bad light by players that dont really play games with guts systems.

Once you play them, you understand the flow, and realize that is just a different way to do it.

[BornWinner]

7 minutes ago, Jocelot said:

Capcom and ArcSys really bringing sexy vampires back

 

[KingTubb]

15 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

I understand the idea that it can be seem as convoluted, but is not really true.

Ok, how is it not convoluted? I really wanna know more about it and the benefits cause I don’t know what they are. 
 

I understand how it works, but I don’t know why it was added, and I’ve never heard any reasons for why it’s good 

[Mr.Cipher]

Thing with Guts is, you take less amount of damage at specific health values.

Like at 50% health I will only take 90% damage, instead of 100.

 

That is one way to handle health values and that is ok.

However Guts is not the only thing GG has for the health values. Because this also exists.

 

We ignore weight. And Stun Resist is a fancy way of saying "but my character only takes 80% Stun instead of 100!"

What makes this system the way it was in Xrd way to complicated is the added defense.

Also doesn't help that the whole thing is never really explained, beyond "on low health you resist damage more!"

So lets take Pot here. He only takes 0.94 the damage your average joe takes, including to that one of the highest Guts ratings in the game.

If my math is correct, he should only take about 40% damage of what the attacks would normaly do at around 30%. Don't quote me on that I'm not 100% sure on the math.

 

There is a very simple "guts" system in another ASW game I want to mention, one that is a lot easier to understand.

 

 

Persona 4s Awakening. We ignore the other benefits. The only thing that matters is the defence boost.

Awakening will flat out reduce all incoming damage to 62.5%  a set value across all non Shadow Character.

It is a much simpler and easier to understand version of guts.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not against guts, the mechanic was intended for the series so they should roll with it.

My Problem is that there is literally nothing in the entire game explaining it correctly, neither is there any explanation on the defence values.

Yes they make sense, it makes sense that a walking mountain like Pot takes less damage, than the twine on legs called Chipp, but this should really be more accesable info.

Persona 4 made it simple to understand, you're below 40% health, you get a flat damage reduction, it is very easy to see and understand (might help that Team Blue Games have the damage of all Combos displayed at all time).

 

Also on the Topic of ASW games, I do love the Dustloop Wiki often enough.

[Hecatom]

Just now, KingTubb said:

Ok, how is it not convoluted? I really wanna know more about it and the benefits cause I don’t know what they are. 
 

I understand how it works, but I don’t know why it was added, and I’ve never heard any reasons for why it’s good 

Man, read my post above.

I already explained a little bit about it.

 

It allows to a more controlled way to balance the health values of the characters and it doubles as a comeback mechanic.

 

I know that after SFIV many people have come to assicate comeback mechanics as those mehcanics that create a disruptive change in momentum.

But you have also stuff like Guts, the Burts, the ratio on how the Burst fills as you get less health, etc.

 

Is a mechanic that is both for game design and player experience.

It gives the devs a more effective way to control the game.

And everything i explained above.

 

This is why i said it was a waste of time.

Most of you already have made your mind about what you think about the guts system, me explaining it why is used will do shit to change your mind

 

🤣

[Mr.Cipher]

14 minutes ago, BornWinner said:

Capcom and ArcSys really bringing sexy vampires back

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Ah yes the club of "nice workout" K.O poses. He can get in line, fits right in, if you ask me.

 

[KingTubb]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Cipher said:

Don't get me wrong, I am not against guts, the mechanic was intended for the series so they should roll with it.

100% agree with you. Guts doesn’t bother me at all, and I’m interested in the design philosophy behind it. I’m sure it’s not just in there to add complexity for the sake of appearing like a deep game, cause it’s a hidden system. 
 

 

6 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

I already explained a little bit about it.

Lol no you didn’t. You just said it’s not convoluted and that most people that say bad things about it don’t play the game. You didn’t say any of the merits of the system. 
 

8 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

It allows to a more controlled way to balance the health values of the characters and it doubles as a comeback mechanic.

This is what I was looking for, thank you. 

 

9 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

Most of you already have made your mind about what you think about the guts system, me explaining it why is used will do shit to change your mind

I haven’t made up my mind and that’s why I asked. 

I wasn’t trying to start a fight or anything, I was legit trying to learn more about guts lol. 

[Mr.Cipher]

Neither did I call Guts bad, all I want is that ingame there is an explanation of how it works.

They add so much stuff with their missions and had such great tutorials in Xrd, but they complelty missed this out.

 

I used Awakening as an easy example of how the mechanic can be easaly understandable. You're below this % of health, now you take this % less damage.

[Dayaan]

2 hours ago, Vhozite said:

Guts is a trash tier mechanic. As the attacker it turns kill situations into guessing games because the near death player basically has hidden hp. Imo there should almost never be variables hidden from a player like that.
 

People say it’s a comeback mechanic but it’s pretty shit for that too. As it turns out, dying slightly slower does not do much to help a critical health player win. 

Never mind the fact that it makes no logical sense. Why is someone who has damage from a whole round of fighting suddenly more resilient? It’s nonsense. 

This is a trash take. 

 

Don't worry, I agree with you, but someone has got to be the contrarian here, right?

[Vhozite]

1 hour ago, KingTubb said:

Ok, how is it not convoluted? I really wanna know more about it and the benefits cause I don’t know what they are. 
 

I understand how it works, but I don’t know why it was added, and I’ve never heard any reasons for why it’s good 

I don’t necessarily agree with them, but Heca did give some reasons on the last page for why Guts exists. Personally I did really like his point about it imitating actual anime with the last second power up trope. 
 

To me it just seems like a really convoluted way of giving characters more hp. I’d much rather they just give Ryu 1200 instead of 1000, but the last 200 is actually 225 because my hits are only doing 80% damage (I know that math doesn’t add up). 

 

Between guts and damage scaling on combos you just get these ridiculous low life situations where it takes more hits to kill than it looks like it should judging by the life bar.
 

Obligatory MK11/SFV comparison: this is one of the things I love about MK11. 300 damage is 300 damage no matter what point of the life bar you’re at. It makes ending rounds so much cleaner. There is even an indent for the last 30% so you can be extra sure your Fatal Blow, Throw KB, or other finishing sequence will 100% kill with no bullshit pixel counting. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Vhozite

[Vhozite]

46 minutes ago, Dayaan said:

This is a trash take. 

 

Don’t worry replies like this tell me I’m on the right track and encourage me to continue posting.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Vhozite

[misterBee]

Guts doesn't have anything to do with balance or giving devs 'control of the game'.

 

Both guts and weighted life bars (where the life bar appears to drain slower when you have less health)  are largely just there to make scrubs feel better when they are getting abused. This creates the illusion that they still have a chance.  It prolongs matches a little bit and makes the losing player feel like they aren't dying as fast.

 

You might argue guts can function as a  comeback mechanic, but in fast-paced anime games guts isn't going to save you most of the time anyway.  It's a minor annoyance for good players, who will take it into account and choose optimal combo routes.

[Volt]

1 hour ago, Mr.Cipher said:

 

I used Awakening as an easy example of how the mechanic can be easaly understandable. You're below this % of health, now you take this % less damage.

More importantly, you have a clear visual cue and you know the damage % reduction.

 

Wtf is "Guts = 3"? And you still got defensive modifiers into the mix.

 

It's so convoluted and most important, hard to discern at a glance, that honestly, a rework would be for the best.

[KingTubb]

2 minutes ago, misterBee said:

  are largely just there to make scrubs feel better when they are getting abused.

As said scrub, this is what I always thought it was (see first post regarding guts) and very much appreciate it 

[Vhozite]

5 minutes ago, misterBee said:

 

 

Both guts and weighted life bars (where the life bar appears to drain slower when you have less health)  are largely just there to make scrubs feel better when they are getting abused. This creates the illusion that they still have a chance.  It prolongs matches a little bit and makes the losing player feel like they aren't dying as fast.

 

I don’t disagree with your point, but if this was the case shouldn’t Strive have way stronger guts then? This whole convo started because we (I think Tubb) noticed that guts was way weaker/less noticeable in Strive than it is in Xrd. 

[misterBee]

6 minutes ago, Vhozite said:

I don’t disagree with your point, but if this was the case shouldn’t Strive have way stronger guts then? This whole convo started because we (I think Tubb) noticed that guts was way weaker/less noticeable in Strive than it is in Xrd. 

On one hand the weakening of guts makes the game seem less scrub friendly, which is the opposite of what ArcSys claims they are trying to do.

 

On the other hand, weakening and/or removal of guts truly simplifies the game, since hidden damage scaling based on life isn't exactly intuitive or easy to understand for new players anyway.

 

I haven't been paying attention to Strive's implementation of guts but one could argue they should just remove it altogether.  Nothing simplifies a game and makes it easier to understand than stripping away superfluous mechanics.  You would sacrifice the psychological benefits of guts in favor of making the game simpler and more accessible from a gameplay standpoint.

[KingTubb]

10 minutes ago, Vhozite said:

shouldn’t Strive have way stronger guts then? This whole convo started because we (I think Tubb) noticed that guts was way weaker/less noticeable in Strive than it is in Xrd. 

This is what I actually wanted to talk about lol. If Strive has no guts and almost SamSho damage, the spirits of the scrubs thinking this one will be more approachable will be smashed to oblivion when they go online. 

[Vhozite]

6 minutes ago, misterBee said:

hidden damage scaling based on life isn't exactly intuitive or easy to understand for new players anyway.

Fucking thank you

[Hecatom]

16 minutes ago, misterBee said:

Guts doesn't have anything to do with balance or giving devs 'control of the game'.

 

Both guts and weighted life bars (where the life bar appears to drain slower when you have less health)  are largely just there to make scrubs feel better when they are getting abused. This creates the illusion that they still have a chance.  It prolongs matches a little bit and makes the losing player feel like they aren't dying as fast.

 

You might argue guts can function as a  comeback mechanic, but in fast-paced anime games guts isn't going to save you most of the time anyway.  It's a minor annoyance for good players, who will take it into account and choose optimal combo routes.

Lol wut?

The moment that a bad character that has usually bad guts has a better proration value once is low on health is both for balance and for comeback capabilities.

 

Like i said, i know that since SF4, everyone just assumes that a comeback mechanic is shit like Ultras and Xfactors, but they can be more than that.

 

Also, you are a fucking developer too, tell me how the fuck having more parametrization options of your game don't have any bearing on having more control on how you tweak it?

LMAO

[Vhozite]

1 minute ago, KingTubb said:

This is what I actually wanted to talk about lol. If Strive has no guts and almost SamSho damage, the spirits of the scrubs thinking this one will be more approachable will be smashed to oblivion when they go online. 

Yeah stuff like this is exactly why I feel like devs don’t actually understand why FGs are hard to get into lol

[Hecatom]

1 hour ago, KingTubb said:

Lol no you didn’t. You just said it’s not convoluted and that most people that say bad things about it don’t play the game. You didn’t say any of the merits of the system. 

Nigga, i made a long ass post where i explained part of my point.

If you missed it then is a different thing.

 

And no, is not really convoluted, if you see it from the side of a player.

It is a very transparent mechanic.

Your character has more damage resistance as the health gets lower.

 

[Hecatom]

41 minutes ago, Vhozite said:

Obligatory MK11/SFV comparison: this is one of the things I love about MK11. 300 damage is 300 damage no matter what point of the life bar you’re at. It makes ending rounds so much cleaner. There is even an indent for the last 30% so you can be extra sure your Fatal Blow, Throw KB, or other finishing sequence will 100% kill with no bullshit pixel counting. 

 

Like i said, part of the idea is to imitate anime and manga.

That way you can also simulate shit like X character has a bigger pain treshold, or some shit like that, lol.

 

In the end is a matter of preferences, and i can understand that some people prefer it to be more streamlined.

But imo, many niggas overblown the mechanic and how it affects the ending of the rounds.

 

Is not like the guts makes every pixel of the last part of the health require TOD combos or some shit.

It only affects in small percentages.

 

[Volt]

2 minutes ago, KingTubb said:

This is what I actually wanted to talk about lol. If Strive has no guts and almost SamSho damage, the spirits of the scrubs thinking this one will be more approachable will be smashed to oblivion when they go online. 

I mean, hitting a Nago HS from fullscreen and getting SamSho damage is a nice equalizer. 🙃

 

I think that simpler to grasp mechanics is not necessarily a bad thing for new players. It's hard enough for scrubs to stick to FGs, adding nonsense (Hi Uni-Clr!) only makes it worse.

[misterBee]

10 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

Lol wut?

The moment that a bad character that has usually bad guts has a better proration value once is low on health is both for balance and for comeback capabilities.

 

Like i said, i know that since SF4, everyone just assumes that a comeback mechanic is shit like Ultras and Xfactors, but they can be more than that.

 

Also, you are a fucking developer too, tell me how the fuck having more parametrization options of your game don't have any bearing on having more control on how you tweak it?

LMAO

If you are trying to fix a bad character by compensating with low-life damage scaling you're already doing it wrong.

 

There are a huge number of ways you can choose to balance a fighting game, and guts is low on the list in terms of effectiveness.  It does provide some comeback potential, but by and large it's mostly there for the psychological impact.  Why do you want to add another layer of defense modifiers when you can just properly tweak base defense and attack properties in the first place?  The little bit of added control isn't worth the added complexity and layering of mechanics that don't need to be there.

 

In exchange for making the game a little bit easier for you to 'tweak', you have also made it much more complicated for new players.  I've been playing Guilty Gear for years and even I don't like having to think about the guts rating for various characters.

 

Guts for balancing purposes is like a shitty band-aid, and as a comeback factor it's mostly mediocre.

[Hecatom]

Just now, Volt said:

I mean, hitting a Nago HS from fullscreen and getting SamSho damage is a nice equalizer. 🙃

 

I think that simpler to grasp mechanics is not necessarily a bad thing for new players. It's hard enough for scrubs to stick to FGs, adding nonsense (Hi Uni-Clr!) only makes it worse.

Most of the player base dont even notice the "nonsense".

So is not it really has any bearing on if they stay with a game or not.

 

[Hecatom]

1 minute ago, misterBee said:

If you are trying to fix a bad character by compensating with low-life damage scaling you're already doing it wrong.

 

There are a huge number of ways you can choose to balance a fighting game, and guts is low on the list in terms of effectiveness.  It does provide some comeback potential, but by and large it's mostly there for the psychological impact.  Why do you want to add another layer of defense modifiers when you can just properly tweak base defense and attack properties in the first place?  The little bit of added control isn't worth the added complexity and layering of mechanics that don't need to be there.

 

In exchange for making the game a little bit easier for you to 'tweak', you have also made it much more complicated for new players.  I've been playing Guilty Gear for years and I even I don't like having to think about the guts rating for various characters.

 

Guts for balancing purposes is like a shitty band-aid, and as a comeback factor it's mostly mediocre.

 

Nigga.

I am not saying is the only way they do balance the game.

But is a tool that allows them to have more control on how they balance the game.

 

If you cant see that, then dunno what to tell you.

 

The more options you have as a dev to tweak your characters and how they interact on the game, the better.

And again, you niggas are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overblowing the guts mechanic.

 

Is fucking amusing if you ask me.

 

[misterBee]

9 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

Most of the player base dont even notice the "nonsense".

So is not it really has any bearing on if they stay with a game or not.

10 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

Is not like the guts makes every pixel of the last part of the health require TOD combos or some shit.

It only affects in small percentages.

 

If a mechanic is something you don't even notice at first and barely affects the game, then why is it even there?  This just works towards my point, which is that guts is extra nonsense that doesn't really need to be there, and isn't adding anything particularly important or beneficial to the game.  It's just another little annoying thing to remember.

[Vhozite]

1 minute ago, Hecatom said:

 

 

And again, you niggas are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overblowing the guts mechanic.

 

Is fucking amusing if you ask me.

 

Nobody is saying it makes games unplayable and makes you shoot blanks in bed besides me. We just don’t like it, and I like exaggerating. 

Just because it’s usually not actually a huge deal doesn’t mean I can’t aggressively dislike it. 
 

 

[misterBee]

3 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

Nigga.

I am not saying is the only way they do balance the game.

But is a tool that allows them to have more control on how they balance the game.

 

I didn't say it's the only way to balance a game. 

 

What I DID say is that adding a bunch of useless shit so you have a few more knobs and levers you can tweak is a waste of time. Yes, you get a bit more control, but at the cost of useless mechanics that people have to remember.  The  tradeoff isn't worth it. 

 

There are so many better ways to balance a game anyway, so why do they so desperately need to add this dumb mechanic for more 'control'?  They have plenty already.  It's just a mechanic to make scrubs feel good more than anything else.  Any sort of 'control' they are getting is minimal at best, since as you say most people don't even notice it.

[Pair of Rooks]

I put comeback mechanic in quotes cause it'll feel like one to a scrub without actually being one. 

 

If a scrub gets destroyed to only a bit of life left then gets one combo before dying, well look at how much he equalled the score!  Etc. 

 

 

[KingTubb]

7 minutes ago, Vhozite said:

We just don’t like it

I love it. Makes me feel better as I get my ass whooped cause I can tell myself it wasn’t that bad 

[Vhozite]

I just don’t like it. Guts is a trash tier mechanic for men who sit on the toilet and kid diddlers

[misterBee]

10 minutes ago, Vhozite said:

I just don’t like it. Guts is a trash tier mechanic for men who sit on the toilet and kid diddlers

You don't sit on the toilet when you poop?

 

Learn new things about people every day I guess...

 

[BornWinner]

4 minutes ago, misterBee said:

You don't sit on the toilet when you poop?

Vhozite is a Harry Potter wizard and just whisks his poop away into nothing.

[TheDarkPhoenix]

 

[TheDarkPhoenix]

Ok so looks like characters have a TON of moves, unless it's just milla for some reason this go around.

[Jocelot]

Honestly looks like the moves she usually has, minus the hairpin. Which I'm sure is gonna mindfuck a lot of Millia vets. And her hulahoop super was replaced with the Bandsaw super.

 

Other than that looks like she's still gonna put you in the blender and set it to frappe until you die so good for her

[Mr.Cipher]

Ram on 12th, looking forward to see what they've done to her in comparison to Xrd.

Outside of making her extra thicc.

[Flackaveli]

It's gonna feel exciting learning a new fighting game series thats not SF. 

 

Strive looks really fun and Millia looks delicious  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Darc_Requiem]

9 hours ago, TheDarkPhoenix said:

 

 

[Dayaan]

Do you people remember what happened when Harry slammed Peter into the side of a building?

 

"I didn't kill him, he killed himself!"

 

"SHUT UP!"

 

No more Guts talk.