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The Street Fighter V Thread, vol. 2

misterBee

By misterBee
in Fighting Game Discussion

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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

Posted
Posted
On 1/24/2022 at 3:37 AM, Mattatsu said:

I remember 3-4 years ago when I wanted to get better at SFV and for some dumb reason, thought playing “honest ST” as a side game would help with my fundamentals.

 

I labbed ST Ryu for a week and went to my first local to enter an ST tournament and got stomped 0-2 on stream and I think I got double perfected my last match. 🤣 

 

in all honesty, it would’ve been nice to stick with and would’ve helped my fundamentals, but it was not the definition of honest that I thought it was

SF2 is grimy af which I found out going to my own locals where people were being trained by a former sf2 top player that lives around here 😂

 

I've been playing that USF2 game and I really like it. It's fun playing SF2 again and the game has pretty great netcode so if anyone else besides @AndrogynousBandyn here has it and wants to play sometime, let me know.

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, elliephil said:

Truthfully I think the closest to this vision of "honest sf2" people have is probably Hyper Fighting.

I think "honest SF2" isn't really a thing. People tend to be kids when they first got into SF. They fondly remember their first game when they really didn't have a grasp of fighting games. Especially people in our age range, the SF games we played when were younger anything but "honest." 

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Darc_Requiem said:

I think "honest SF2" isn't really a thing. People tend to be kids when they first got into SF. They fondly remember their first game when they really didn't have a grasp of fighting games. Especially people in our age range, the SF games we played when were younger anything but "honest." 

 

Scrubbing through these clips from people who play hf competently, there isn't really too many gimmicks or bs compared to the other iterations.

 

I only played hf for a year or so with some local people so I can't give an honest breakdown of what is good and bad about hf. All I can say is that there is some serious bs that people get carried by in ST but it's manageable lol.

 

 

Fun watch as well. The whole channel is awesome.

 

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Sonero said:

 

There were so many great tournament sets in that game. Easy AF to go back to watch old SF4 vids.

 

Still haven''t bothered rewatching old SF5 Evos.

 

SF4 is one of those games that was fun to watch, but man, i ended hating playing it with passion.

Meanwhile SFV is the opposite, i dont mind playing it (although i do it very rarely) but i dont really crave to watch high level play since outside some chars, the matches end kind of boring for me.

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Dayaan Level 13

Dayaan

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, DoctaMario said:

HF is my favorite SF2 version. I've never seen any ToDs or anything like that in that game although I guess it's possible they could exist.

Mine too. It's my first exposure to Street Fighter. Thank God it sucked or I'd never have moved on. Granted my favorite SF to play now is even shittier, but no one here gets to judge. I've seen enough opinions over here to never trust anyone ever again.

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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

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Posted
26 minutes ago, Dayaan said:

Mine too. It's my first exposure to Street Fighter. Thank God it sucked or I'd never have moved on. Granted my favorite SF to play now is even shittier, but no one here gets to judge. I've seen enough opinions over here to never trust anyone ever again.

You thought HF sucked? Why?

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Dayaan Level 13

Dayaan

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

You thought HF sucked? Why?

It's my favorite SF2, but I generally dislike SF2. I don't like the things that make other people like it. I don't like that there isn't a secondary defense system besides blocking, I don't like the limited movement, and I don't have an appreciation for the way they balanced the characters. I see no objective reason why SF2 is hailed as a masterpiece when even a game like HF is founded on a lot of oddities within the limitations of the system mechanics. All I see SF2 as is a way to break in people to a harsh FG world of loss and lack of control. It's a great way to build mental strength and a work ethic to learn FGs, but I don't see what that can't be attained elsewhere. That's why I dislike SF2 and why it sucks to me. That being said, HF has the least problems for me when it comes to the SF2 series so it's my favorite and it has that soft spot for me as my first intro to SF.

Edited by Dayaan
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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

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Posted
13 minutes ago, Dayaan said:

It's my favorite SF2, but I generally dislike SF2. I don't like the things that make other people like it. I don't like that there isn't a secondary defense system besides blocking, I don't like the limited movement, and I don't have an appreciation for the way they balanced the characters. I see no objective reason why SF2 is hailed as a masterpiece when even a game like HF is founded on a lot of oddities within the limitations of the system mechanics. All I see SF2 as is a way to break in people to a harsh FG world of loss and lack of control. It's a great way to build mental strength and a work ethic to learn FGs, but I don't see what that can't be attained elsewhere. That's why I dislike SF2 and why it sucks to me. That being said, HF has the least problems for me when it comes to the SF2 series so it's my favorite and it has that soft spot for me as my first intro to SF.

SF2 is hailed because it was the first fighting game that was actually good and because it created a movement and the community.

 

But it is a great game. Even now, imo it still holds up against a lot of modern games because of how simple it is and I think that simplicity is also part of why it's so great. I like 3rd Strike and GGXXAC+R, they're among my favorites, but the multitude of defensive options GG gives you and how pervasive parry is, imo, diminishes the importance of character movesets, because that means I don't have to figure out what my character's individual response to a given situation is going to be. The limited movement also makes covering or defending ground a little more contentious because you can't just dash up and gain ground.

 

I get why you don't like SF2 and I can understand why, especially for someone who probably grew up with games that were a lot newer why it would seem kind of archaic in some ways. But sometimes the limitations are features more than bugs and I think that's definitely the case with SF2.

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

HF is my favorite SF2 version. I've never seen any ToDs or anything like that in that game although I guess it's possible they could exist.

CPS1 links into dizzy are the only thing that comes close to a TOD in HF iirc. There is a random likelihood to be put in a dizzy state based on which normal attacks (pre-determined stun value) and the modifier (random value) on those attacks the game decides to be used. Sometimes the modifier can be positive or negative and actually reduce the amount of stun dealt to the receiver. Combine this with the priority linking of CPS1 links and it becomes a little wacky.

 

ST uses CPS2 hardware so this type of RNG isn't possible in that game, but still very much happens for it's own separate reasons.

 

Could you imagine if the guys that bothered explaining any of this to me became doctors or lawyers or something? We might have been out of this pandemic by now lol

Edited by elliephil
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Dayaan Level 13

Dayaan

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

that was actually good

I think that's because at the time, people didn't know what was good, which is totally fair because SF2 is what set the standard to begin with. I get that that's the reason why the game is respected, but that doesn't make it inherently good. Dragon Ball is my favorite franchise and it defined the genre but it's by no means good. It was good then. The best even, but it's definitely not as good as it used to be in the context of the current media environment, just like with SF2 (but that's my opinion, not fact).

 

7 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

simplicity is also part of why it's so great.

Again, that simplicity is why I dislike it, so I can see that being a subjective thing, but even in that simplicity there are a lot of nuances that I'll try to hit later in the post.

 

7 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

pervasive parry is, imo, diminishes the importance of character movesets

I know what you're saying, but the 3rd Strike example isn't necessarily all that accurate because you still have post-parry moves that you can do to keep your character advantage, which keeps the game fresh and makes it worth it to learn every option at all times.

 

8 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

The limited movement also makes covering or defending ground a little more contentious

That may be, but at a high level for any Street Fighter, dashing is not that common;

9 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

because you can't just dash up and gain ground.

because you can't just dash up and gain ground. Good play will stop that. It's a utility to be exploited to make a game go by faster, and there are times where it will work, and times it won't. I don't think dashing fits very well into the general idea of neutral because you'll lose as a player when you use it. It's an added nuance to the game that I really appreciate and it goes hand in hand with slow paced walking. You can choose whether or not to limit yourself to just walking or dashing, and that option is really important to me.

 

11 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

 

I get why you don't like SF2 and I can understand why, especially for someone who probably grew up with games that were a lot newer why it would seem kind of archaic in some ways.

It's not really about it being archaic for me, I just feel that so much value is placed in a game that inspired every FG after it to include similar fundamentals. By extension - and with even more difficulty due to the added mind games and nuances of future games - I still feel as though those same fundamentals could be taught now. It seems redundant to go back and put so much stock into a games like SF2 when the same could be achieved of current games. It's one thing to enjoy it, and another to think it's better than other FGs because it doesn't have all the nonsense of newer games. That may well be a particular player's cup of tea, and that's perfectly fine, but you wouldn't be better at the genre just by playing SF2 as opposed to other Street Fighters.

 

15 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

But sometimes the limitations are features more than bugs and I think that's definitely the case with SF2.

This is a point I can't contest whatsoever because I think I have to recognise that those bugs, glitches and unintended gameplay quirks are just something that SF2 lovers will always defend because they genuinely believe that they're features. The reality is, if the community considers them features instead of problematic twists of fate, then that's exactly what they are. The community is bigger than one person - it's certainly bigger than me - so while I don't understand why people "tolerate" the "issues" with the game, I don't think it's my joy to understand. If that's the case, then I lose here.

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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

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Posted
16 minutes ago, elliephil said:

CPS1 links into dizzy are the only thing that comes close to a TOD in HF iirc. There is a random likelihood to be put in a dizzy state based on which normal attacks (pre-determined stun value) and the modifier (random value) on those attacks the game decides to be used. Sometimes the modifier can be positive or negative and actually reduce the amount of stun dealt to the receiver. Combine this with the intentional priority linking of CPS1 links and it becomes a little wacky.

 

ST uses CPS2 hardware so this type of RNG isn't possible in that game, but still very much happens for it's own separate reasons.

 

Could you imagine if the guys that bothered explaining any of this to me became doctors or lawyers or something? We might have been out of this pandemic by now lol

Far as I remember, Guile was the only character who had a redizzy combo in HF. SF2 in general had a degree of rng to it that I never truly understood lol

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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Dayaan said:

I think that's because at the time, people didn't know what was good, which is totally fair because SF2 is what set the standard to begin with. I get that that's the reason why the game is respected, but that doesn't make it inherently good.

 

 

I know what you're saying, but the 3rd Strike example isn't necessarily all that accurate because you still have post-parry moves that you can do to keep your character advantage, which keeps the game fresh and makes it worth it to learn every option at all times.

 

It's not really about it being archaic for me, I just feel that so much value is placed in a game that inspired every FG after it to include similar fundamentals. By extension - and with even more difficulty due to the added mind games and nuances of future games - I still feel as though those same fundamentals could be taught now. It seems redundant to go back and put so much stock into a games like SF2 when the same could be achieved of current games.

 

 The community is bigger than one person - it's certainly bigger than me - so while I don't understand why people "tolerate" the "issues" with the game, I don't think it's my joy to understand. If that's the case, then I lose here.

The fact that new players still pick the game up is an indicator of quality. And it's regarded as one of the best ways to up your fundamentals because fundamentals are all there is in SF2. There's nothing to make up for bad footsies or fundamentals like there is in most other games that have more subsystems.

 

You may have post-parry moves to keep advantage and it's true that parry does not guarantee a win, but it's generally the strongest option in your toolkit both by landing it or the fear potentially landing it can put into the opponent. There are situations you can work yourself into in SF2 that really don't have a good answer to escape that would probably never come up or be as big an issue in games with parries or something like faultless defense in GG, because the subsystems, even if they aren't get-out-of-jail-free cards, still give the player a recourse for bad play, which is a reason why SF2 is held up as one of the best games for development of fundamentals.

 

In the end, it's not about winning or losing. We're lucky we have such a dearth of games to choose from, especially today.

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

Far as I remember, Guile was the only character who had a redizzy combo in HF. SF2 in general had a degree of rng to it that I never truly understood lol

I can do Chun's HF redizzy.  It's easy but impractical because :

 

Full screen fireball (half circle input) against a cornered opponent.

Jump forward twice to catch up.

J.hk

Close hp

Fireball

Low mk

Low mk again I think?

Fireball

Walk one step forward, fighting the pushback,

St mp.

Enjoy pushback sliding you away three quarters of the screen.

Back up further and repeat.

You won't finish it a third time cause they're already dead.

 

 

Starting a fireball attack stops pushback, hence it works.

 

I vaugely recall Guile's being a bit more practical but too difficult for me to do.

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Dayaan said:

I see no objective reason why SF2 is hailed as a masterpiece

Easy answer: play everything that came before it.

 

Seriously, things like hitstun being long enough so attacks are safe on hit, the existence of blockstun, connected attacks having enough stun and/or hitstop so the players can react to who got hit & who didn't before both characters can move again, simple walking allowing the feet to slide on the ground instead of that herky jerky keyframes-match-the-floor which don't work when you only have 3 keyframes in your walk cycle, the idea that a blocked attack is treated differently than a whiffed attack, the notion that the corner works differently than midscreen so stage control is important, combos and blockstrings exist so it isn't a constant twitchfest of single moves, pushback being animated instead of teleportation, walkspeeds being just high enough to make threatening a range possible... SF2 figured it all out in one go.

 

Even SF1 is fucking rough

 

Probably the most quality experience preSF2 is Karate Champ, and I didn't know it had blocking for decades because of the poor feedback. 

 

Edited by Pair of Rooks
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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

They do?? What is it?

J. Rh, st. Fierce xx strong shoryu, DIZZY, cross up j. Forward, st. Short, cr. Short, plink st. Short + st. Fierce xx Strong shoryu DIZZY, kill with shoryu

 

There are variations after the first dizzy with using two cr shorts but I think the one I put is more consistent with redizzy.

 

I'll have to do more research, but I know Ryu, Ken, and Guile are all privileged within the CPS1 system due to the fact that their glitched CPS1 links can be exploited going from crouching to standing normals and vice versa. Most other characters don't get that luxury.

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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Pair of Rooks said:

I can do Chun's HF redizzy.  It's easy but impractical because :

 

 

Huh I didn't know she had one too.

 

I just remember how bananas it was that she got a fireball in HF.

 

2 hours ago, elliephil said:

J. Rh, st. Fierce xx strong shoryu, DIZZY, cross up j. Forward, st. Short, cr. Short, plink st. Short + st. Fierce xx Strong shoryu DIZZY, kill with shoryu

 

There are variations after the first dizzy with using two cr shorts but I think the one I put is more consistent with redizzy.

 

I'll have to do more research, but I know Ryu, Ken, and Guile are all privileged within the CPS1 system due to the fact that their glitched CPS1 links can be exploited going from crouching to standing normals and vice versa. Most other characters don't get that luxury.

Thank ya. Interesting about them being able to go from crouching to standing normals like that, i didn't think that was anything unusual at least not for Short/Jab normals.

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Doctrine_Dark Level 14

Doctrine_Dark

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Darc_Requiem said:

So your getting it on PS4/PS5? Dammit, I'm going to have to buy this game twice aren't I?

 

I think I might have to get it on PS4 for now. Mainly because my old ass peripherals are only usable on PS4 games. I can't use them on PS5 games. I'm still in the prehistoric times.

 

I believe there's the option to upgrade it to the PS5 version for free, so that's good to know.

 

Don't buy the game twice!

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Doctrine_Dark said:

 

I think I might have to get it on PS4 for now. Mainly because my old ass peripherals are only usable on PS4 games. I can't use them on PS5 games. I'm still in the prehistoric times.

 

I believe there's the option to upgrade it to the PS5 version for free, so that's good to know.

 

Don't buy the game twice!

I was referencing PC and PS5. Most people in the KOF thread seemed to be getting the PC version. So preorded it on Steam. So now I'm debating whether to buy the PS5 version too.

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