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Video Game Discussion Thread vol. 2

misterBee

By misterBee
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iStu X Level 18

iStu X

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Man, Legends Arceus finally does so many things Pokemon fans have been wanting for damn near its entire existence. I really hope the next generational game or next spin off doesn’t devolve back into usual gameplay cycle. Cause that would suck so much. This game took so many steps forward it feels like we ran a marathon. 

 

This needs to be the new standard going forward. Full stop. Legends Arceus genuinely feels and plays how so many Pokémon fans imagined it in their head as they were exploring the games as a kid/teen.
 

This is probably my favorite Pokémon game since Black/White and will likely end up being my favorite Pokémon title ever 

Edited by iStu X
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Sonichuman Level 18

Sonichuman

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, iStu X said:

Man, Legends Arceus finally does so many things Pokemon fans have been wanting for damn near 20 years. I really hope the next generational game or next spin off doesn’t devolve back into usual gameplay cycle. Cause that would suck so much. This game took so many steps forward it feels like a marathon.

 

This needs to be the new standard going forward. Arceus genuinely feels and plays how so many Pokémon fans imagined it in their head as they were exploring the games as a kid/teen.
 

This is probably my favorite Pokémon game since Black/White and will likely end up being my favorite Pokémon title ever 

Well...apparently some traditional Pokemon fans are fighting against this game cause I'm pretty sure they know if this game is successful it's going to change the way how Pokemon is played in the future.  So far some are saying its the best Pokemon game ever put out all the way to the what I'm pretty sure is extremely hyperbolic worst Pokemon game ever made.  If sales match up then it doesn't matter what the nay sayers are saying...it's going to send a clear message to Nintendo.

 

Edited by Sonichuman
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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

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1 minute ago, RSG3 said:

The camera. 

Just make it work better when there's a lot going on. It's great when you're walking around or even fighting sometimes, but the minute things get remotely heated or you're in a small space it shits itself. Tbh I think Castlevania 64 had it right giving you different camera options for where the camera sat and how it behaved. I don't know what that would require in a soulsborne game but it would be worth trying imo.

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RSG3 Level 18

RSG3

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22 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

Just make it work better when there's a lot going on

Yea but how? People say the camera needs work all the time but no one has real solutions. Only solution I can thing of besides pulling the camera back, something I absolutly do not want them to do, is to do the body phasing Demons Souls does. I ask because I see people wings about the camera all the time but they never propose any solution short of the camera being to read your fucking mind, takijg walls away, or making all the monster small which is goofy imo. It's a gameplay mechanic and your ability to manage it is part of playing the game. Don't let yourself get jammed up against Dallas where the camera becomes an issue. Don't stand in the Giant Circumcision Pistion while locked onto the big ass boss. Like it's a mechanic of the game you have to learn to use. I really don't agree the camera shits itself at all and when it does so that it's usually because you got yourself into an awful position. There are exceptions, The Demon Centitpede in DS1 springs to mind, his arena is terrible and nothing in that fight really works properly but over all I think the series does a fine job with its camera, most just spend all their time locked on 100% when this isn't OOT and you really shouldn't do that. 

 

So I'm asking because it's easy to say the camera shits the bed but no ones really proposed an actual solution to the problem and if it really did shit the bed that badly no one would actually play anyway. I'm just reminded of all the times I heard Ninja Gaiden on Xbox had a bad camera when what it really seemed to be was people didn't think it was something they should have to interact with when it absolutly is. Most games with auto cameras (not RE style fixed ones I mean auto ones that just float around of their own volition)  tend to suck imo because you're missing a key source of visual input for the player. Just stuck there hoping for the best. 

 

I think it's an interesting topic of discussion that doesn't seem to get much coverage at all. When the Camera works eight no one talks about it but when it's bad everyone's all about it. I would love to see a developer round table of some kind dedicated to the subject and see where devs fall on the camera conversation. I know its a hot button issue as the debate for 3rd or 1st person alone is a big divide.

Edited by RSG3
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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

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18 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

Yea but how? People say the camera needs work all the time but no one has real solutions. Only solution I can thing of besides pulling the camera back, something I absolutly do not want them to do, is to do the body phasing Demons Souls does. I ask because I see people wings about the camera all the time but they never propose any solution short of the camera being to read your fucking mind, takijg walls away, or making all the monster small which is goofy imo. It's a gameplay mechanic and your ability to manage it is part of playing the game. Don't let yourself get jammed up against Dallas where the camera becomes an issue. Don't stand in the Giant Circumcision Pistion while locked onto the big ass boss. Like it's a mechanic of the game you have to learn to use. I really don't agree the camera shits itself at all and when it does so that it's usually because you got yourself into an awful position. There are exceptions, The Demon Centitpede in DS1 springs to mind, his arena is terrible and nothing in that fight really works properly but over all I think the series does a fine job with its camera, most just spend all their time locked on 100% when this isn't OOT and you really shouldn't do that. 

 

So I'm asking because it's easy to say the camera shits the bed but no ones really proposed an actual solution to the problem and if it really did shit the bed that badly no one would actually play anyway. I'm just reminded of all the times I heard Ninja Gaiden on Xbox had a bad camera when what it really seemed to be was people didn't think it was something they should have to interact with when it absolutly is. Most games with auto cameras (not RE style fixed ones I mean auto ones that just float around of their own volition)  tend to suck imo because you're missing a key source of visual input for the player. Just stuck there hoping for the best. 

I made a suggestion, did you miss it?

 

Also, managing a shitty camera is not a "game mechanic." Having to purposely avoid areas the devs set up because the camera sucks when you're around them is bad design, not a mechanic. Come on.

 

 

Edited by DoctaMario
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RSG3 Level 18

RSG3

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DoctaMario said:

I made a suggestion, did you miss it?

Yea...i even said I didn't really want them to pull the camera back, even by selection, and you admitted you didn't know how you would even implement that to begin with so it's not much of a suggestion is it? Why are you being condescending about it?

 

1 hour ago, DoctaMario said:

Also, managing a shitty camera is not a "game mechanic." Having to purposely avoid areas the devs set up because the camera sucks when you're around them is bad design, not a mechanic. Come on.

Yea but clearly I don't think the camera itself is shitty. What areas do you have to avoid completely because of the camera? 

 

I was asking genuininly and responded with my genuine opinion about the situation and how people talk about "the problem." You don't have to he a dick head because I ask questions and wonder how you would solve the problem something you flat out admit you don't really have a solution for in your post. 

Edited by RSG3
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purbeast Level 13

purbeast

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To be fair, it's not really up to an end user to "fix" a bad camera problem.  They are not the experts in it.  The end user can definitely call out bad cameras though and explain to the devs why it is bad then they can figure out a solution for it.

 

It's kind of like when you know a UI is shitty because there are better ones you like.  But that doesn't mean you need to design a new one to "fix" the shitty one.  There are experts that do that.  

 

You will get the worst designs possible when you have an end user designing a solution.  It's up to the experts/professionals to solve the problem the end user is having.

 

I've had a lot of experience with end users thinking they know what they want from a design point of view with my nearly 2 decades of development experience.  They really have no clue what they want.

Edited by purbeast
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RSG3 Level 18

RSG3

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7 minutes ago, purbeast said:

To be fair, it's not really up to an end user to "fix" a bad camera problem.

And that is completely fair. I'm just trying to have a convo about it. I understand there isn't actually anything he can or even should have to do about it. I'm just wanting a conversation about the subject. That's even why I ended my initial post about it wishing that we could get some kind of developer round table on the subject because I'm sure opinions amongst them are really varied as well as to what does and doesn't constitute a proper camera and how to solve the problems enherent with each style of implementation. I don't actually expect the conversation to go father then just being an interesting exercise. I Don't think pulling Dark Souls camera out is a good solution because it fundamentaly changes how combat works in those games. It changes the game into a different experience so I personally don't find that to be a good solution. BlyePoint hit on s omethong of one by having the player character go invisible when the player, an obstacle and the camera are jammed up against each other. It's not a perfect fix tho for what many consider to be a problem (I consider it bad play) so there must be other ideas that could be floated to help solve the issue which really just ties into your comments about end users calling out a problem so a developer can fix it. Just talking about it can lead to a solution someone might see. 

 

It's also just interesting to talk about imo. *shrug*

 

 

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purbeast Level 13

purbeast

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1 hour ago, RSG3 said:

And that is completely fair. I'm just trying to have a convo about it. I understand there isn't actually anything he can or even should have to do about it. I'm just wanting a conversation about the subject. That's even why I ended my initial post about it wishing that we could get some kind of developer round table on the subject because I'm sure opinions amongst them are really varied as well as to what does and doesn't constitute a proper camera and how to solve the problems enherent with each style of implementation. I don't actually expect the conversation to go father then just being an interesting exercise. I Don't think pulling Dark Souls camera out is a good solution because it fundamentaly changes how combat works in those games. It changes the game into a different experience so I personally don't find that to be a good solution. BlyePoint hit on s omethong of one by having the player character go invisible when the player, an obstacle and the camera are jammed up against each other. It's not a perfect fix tho for what many consider to be a problem (I consider it bad play) so there must be other ideas that could be floated to help solve the issue which really just ties into your comments about end users calling out a problem so a developer can fix it. Just talking about it can lead to a solution someone might see. 

 

It's also just interesting to talk about imo. *shrug*

 

 

Yeah I agree with you that it's a cool thing to discuss as well, but was just more saying that it's okay to mention there is a problem with something without having a solution for it.  I too would enjoy watching something about a discussion on things like that too.  I'd like to hear a round table with the UX at MS who came up with the current Xbox UI and genuinely hear why they made the design the way it is because I think (and many others based on what I've heard and read) that it is the worst dashboard by far ever on any console. 

 

I think a lot of it was designed in the way they could integrate advertising to the end user, which is unfortunate for obvious reasons.  It would be interesting to hear them discuss why it is the way it is though.  Since the blades dash of the 360, the UI for Xbox consoles has just been downhill.

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MillionX Level 16

MillionX

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The Fable franchise...the way it ended up is such a frustrating thing to me... probably more than any other for me....well aside from Phantasy Star.  It's the first series that comes to mind when I think of how great a certain thing could be if someone else did a remake, but with certain things changed... like the final confrontation with Lucien Fairfax at the end of part 2, of course...or the fact that it's actually impossible for the main character to get killed like you'd expect in a normal game that isn't made for little kids.....or the unbelievably bad way that co-op was implemented.

 

...and Phantasy Star Portable 2/Infinity (the ultimate of the PSO/"Universe" era)--- I'd get that right away if it ever got the remake treatment, preferably by some other company.  I've seen the latest one that they took *years* to finally goddamn bring to the West....far too late, imo... and with various things that are instantly off-putting to me, like new designs of the "Duman" race, and the fact that the beast race from the Universe and Portable era is gone.

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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

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4 hours ago, RSG3 said:

Yea...i even said I didn't really want them to pull the camera back, even by selection, and you admitted you didn't know how you would even implement that to begin with so it's not much of a suggestion is it? Why are you being condescending about it?

 

Yea but clearly I don't think the camera itself is shitty. What areas do you have to avoid completely because of the camera? 

 

I was asking genuininly and responded with my genuine opinion about the situation and how people talk about "the problem." You don't have to he a dick head because I ask questions and wonder how you would solve the problem something you flat out admit you don't really have a solution for in your post. 

I'm not being a dick head or condescending, but genuinely asking if you missed the solution I proposed because it happens regularly when I try to talk to you.

 

My solution is, give the player multiple camera options that work better in certain situations. That's it. I'm not a programmer so it's not my job to figure out how to implement it and I couldn't tell you how that would work because I don't do that kind of work. You asked me what my solution was and that it. It's fine if it's not a solution you like, but I answered your question and got something back about how the camera is somehow a game mechanic, which is still BS to me. If it doesn't work properly, it's not the fault of the player.

Edited by DoctaMario
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Camacho Level 13

Camacho

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Yeah man, I like From's stuff a lot, but their cameras are still bad. Sekiro had the best one, but even it went gonzo in a few areas.  Also can't get behind an endorsement of Ninja Gaiden's camera, way too many instances of TN being more focused on making it look cool than actually being useful. I remember one of the challenge pack missions where you had to fight 2 of those cat enemies while fighting this giant sloth looking thing- it was so impossible to see that I just stopped playing the game at that point. The souls cameras are at least better than that.

 

And this is coming from someone who loves the ps2 Shinobi and learned to control its camera just fine. 

Edited by Camacho
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AriesWarlock Level 18

AriesWarlock

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38 minutes ago, Camacho said:

Yeah man, I like From's stuff a lot, but their cameras are still bad. Sekiro had the best one, but even it went gonzo in a few areas.  Also can't get behind an endorsement of Ninja Gaiden's camera, way too many instances of TN being more focused on making it look cool than actually being useful. I remember one of the challenge pack missions where you had to fight 2 of those cat enemies while fighting this giant sloth looking thing- it was so impossible to see that I just stopped playing the game at that point. The souls cameras are at least better than that.

 

And this is coming from someone who loves the ps2 Shinobi and learned to control its camera just fine. 

 

Opposite for me. I couldn't play Shinobi for long, I don't remember if I ever passed the first level. I was playing it on a widescreen and that game was not made for widescreen. I was trying to do that cool move where you have to cut 4 enemies but it just gave me a headache. Maybe because back then my TV was 37''. I didn't even bother unwrapping Nightshade fearing it would be a similar experience.

But I didn't have any major problems with Ninja Gaiden though I know the frustration with the sloth and two catgirls - but they would appear on higher difficulties and not on normal.

I just kept resetting and moving the camera as needed. I'd say 92% of the game was camera problem-free for me.

 

Edited by AriesWarlock
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