The Return of.. Terribly Unpopular Opinions.

[Hawkingbird]

Fighting games should take advantage of the online nature of their games to forge AI. Killer Instinct had a mode where you can fight the ghosts of other players. 

[DoctaMario]

2 hours ago, RSG3 said:

The AI being dumb as a bag of hammers is exactly why i say Arcade Mode is pointless in this day and age.

I usually use it as a go-between when I have some tech i can do in training, but I'm not sure it's ready for a human opponent yet. Plus, AI can be better at pointing out weaknesses in your game than most human players, but it can also breed bad habits unfortunately. It has its uses.

[DoctaMario]

1 hour ago, Hawkingbird said:

Fighting games should take advantage of the online nature of their games to forge AI. Killer Instinct had a mode where you can fight the ghosts of other players. 

You were supposed to be able to do that with Ghost Mode in SamSho which would have been a pretty incredible thing especially given the netcode and covid. Unfortunately something like that needs a large sample base to not have AI that's retarded and there just wasn't enough so the ghosts were dumb. Tekken 5DR had that too though and it seemed to work out a lot better as I recall.

[RSG3]

1 hour ago, DoctaMario said:

I usually use it as a go-between when I have some tech i can do in training, but I'm not sure it's ready for a human opponent yet. Plus, AI can be better at pointing out weaknesses in your game than most human players, but it can also breed bad habits unfortunately. It has its uses.

Its got its uses but just about every other option available today is better then it. Youre better off posting your matches online and having a large group of people diect them then you ever will finding flaws in your game playing Arcade mode. Arcade Mode breeds bad habits more then beneficial outcomes. You have to be extremely aware of yourself to use Arcade as a training mode imo. Arcade Mode is a squandered mode. I absolutely agree that it could be better and would make the home training grind a lot easier if they would give us better more robust Arcade modes that went even somewhat into replicating a real play enviroment but they dont and they probably never will.

 

I play action games with better combative AI then fighting games.

 

AI Learning is a great idea, but as mentioned you gotta have a big enough sample size to pull form or else you just get Chat Bots that can barely hold a conversation.

 

I think VF4 had a great idea with the Kumite Mode that had AI based on high level players at the upper tiers of the ladder. Its not the perfect fix as its still exploitable in the end, it cant evolve as it plays you, but I still think its a lot better then the avergae Arcade Mode AI that falls for day 1 tactics for the lifespan of the game.

Edited August 2, 2021 by RSG3

[Hecatom]

7 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

Fighting game AI could be a great learning tool if devs stopped thinking about arcade mode as the old school quarter stealing AI and started updating the AI with tech and exploits the players were coming up with. Yes, fighting games are geared towards multiplayer but having another means of learning that doesn't necessarily involve another player would help everybody. 

 

You mean like the Samsho feature that no one uses,  where your "Ghost" improves as you play other people, and it plays other people?

 

The reality is that while it could be done, it would take resources that can be used elsewhere.

You are basically asking for machine learning, and that will require not only the devs to do a solid algorithm, but also that a good sample of the people playing the game bother to play on the modes where the ai could learn the game.

 

The majority of people who stay with fgs after the release are not interested on single player modes, and those who are, are very likely not skilled enough to give useful data to the ai to learn from.

 

Then is also the thing that while i don't doubt it can be done with time and resources, it wouldn't still be like playing against a human.

At worst, it would be as usual, where you will learn bad habits, and at worse, it would be like the machine reading your inputs.

 

There is also the fact that the vast majority of people externalize their loses, so is very likely we will see people bitching and moaning that the ai is a cheating bastard.

 

I say that we are better with devs investing time and resources on better tutorials and single player modes that can help the player learn than trying to improve on a feature that is not going to help imo.

 

Like for example, think of something like the rpg mode of GBFVS, where you have objectives that teach the player about the ins and outs of the game mechanics and the characters.

Extending the tutorial beyond the  usual modes, but also into other places.

 

Like for example, something that MikeZ wanted to implement that i think is a great idea, is to be able to take chunks of your replays to transfer them into the training mode, allowing you to train scenarios you had problems with.

 

Or something that i have think of, of adding to the replays context prompts where you can see where you fucked up on your defense, explaining what could have you done, for a mixup, like saying you where out of blockstun, so you could have backdashed for example, taking into account the frame data, or you could have used a invul. dp, or a super, or you had enough meter to use a defensive mechanic, etc.

 

Imagine, being able to have your replay feature integrated to an addon for discord, youtube, twitter, forums, etc, so you can select one, upload a segment, and ask for help, streamlining the process of seeking help, since you can do all of that through the game.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Hecatom

[DarkSakul]

Nier Automata still sucks 

[RSG3]

Not as much as Elder Scrolls!!!!

[Hecatom]

2 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

Not as much as Elder Scrolls!!!!

Everything Bethesda tbh (made by them, what they publish is another thing)

[RSG3]

4 minutes ago, Hecatom said:

Everything Bethesda tbh (made by them, what they publish is another thing)

I'm kinda just trolling but at the same time agree with this statement 100%. I own a decent amount of their published content but I don't own any Beth first party product anymore and I probably never will again honestly. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by RSG3

[DarkSakul]

24 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

Not as much as Elder Scrolls!!!!

I can fix Elder Scrolls with Mods. 

Good thing about Nier Automata is B2 and her assets 
And I got it for like $10 on sale on Steam. If I paid full price for it my opinion of it would of been worst.

I am rating the two by how often I actually play ether one, and how often I finish a play though. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by DarkSakul

[RSG3]

12 minutes ago, DarkSakul said:

I can fix Elder Scrolls with Mods. 

Yea but you shouldn't have to which is the real point. 

 

The excuses for Bethesda will never stop being funny as fuck. 

[DarkSakul]

18 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

Yea but you shouldn't have to which is the real point. 

I had to mod Neir Automata as well as that shit was so buggy it made Cyber Punk 2077 look smooth 
Okay that was an exaggeration, but the PC version had bad problems for a version that got stalled as long as it did. 

Not as bad a Red Dead Redemption 2 bad, but still (RDR2 had a buggy launcher). 

Edited August 2, 2021 by DarkSakul

[RSG3]

22 minutes ago, DarkSakul said:

I had to mod Neir Automata as well as that shit was so buggy it made Cyber Punk 2077 look smooth 

Yea and you shouldn't have had to do that. If I wanted to give an excuse it's that at least Platinum is used to working in a closed environment for a user base in the same closed environment while the open nature of the PC Enviroment is a pretty different beast development wise. 

 

It's not a great excuse but it is one. What's Bethesdas reason for shitting the bed every launch on their preferred platform?

[Vhozite]

37 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

Yea but you shouldn't have to which is the real point. 

I 100% agree with this, however moddable games are so much better than ones that aren’t. The only single player games I play for more than like 200h are the ones I can customize with mod support. With that in mind, I think ES games are an amazing basis for mods, and if continued mod support means their games continue to be buggy trash at launch I’m perfectly ok with that. Would never buy an online game from Beth tho lol.

[RSG3]

I mean missing is a ton of fun and a great way to breathe more life into your game. 

 

It shouldn't be the first steps to launching the thing the first time you actually want to play. 

 

It's supposed to breath more life into your game, not save it from life support lol. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by RSG3

[DoctaMario]

4 hours ago, Hecatom said:

You mean like the Samsho feature that no one uses,  where your "Ghost" improves as you play other people, and it plays other people?

 

 

Nobody uses it because it was broken in 1.0 and they never bothered fixing it. 

 

I like a lot of the ideas you have here but one of the common gripes about fighting games is that you can never really learn them within the game itself, you always have to go to outside sources for information. Combined with some of the things you mentioned, having AI that gets upgrades would be a good way for people to learn. 

[iStu X]

Bethesda has always been a trash company and Todd Howard is a piece of shit. 
 

it doesn’t matter how well your games are written if you can barely play them without the community that plays them dumping untold man hours into fixing them

Edited August 3, 2021 by iStu X

[DoctaMario]

5 hours ago, RSG3 said:

Its got its uses but just about every other option available today is better then it. Youre better off posting your matches online and having a large group of people diect them then you ever will finding flaws in your game playing Arcade mode. Arcade Mode breeds bad habits more then beneficial outcomes. You have to be extremely aware of yourself to use Arcade as a training mode imo. Arcade Mode is a squandered mode. I absolutely agree that it could be better and would make the home training grind a lot easier if they would give us better more robust Arcade modes that went even somewhat into replicating a real play enviroment but they dont and they probably never will.

 

I play action games with better combative AI then fighting games.

 

AI Learning is a great idea, but as mentioned you gotta have a big enough sample size to pull form or else you just get Chat Bots that can barely hold a conversation.

 

I think VF4 had a great idea with the Kumite Mode that had AI based on high level players at the upper tiers of the ladder. Its not the perfect fix as its still exploitable in the end, it cant evolve as it plays you, but I still think its a lot better then the avergae Arcade Mode AI that falls for day 1 tactics for the lifespan of the game.

I always hear that VF4 was pretty much the best tutorial and single player game if you actually care about learning, and there were several times I almost picked it up just to check it out. Shame other devs don't learn from that if that's the case. 

[Hecatom]

24 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

Nobody uses it because it was broken in 1.0 and they never bothered fixing it. 

 

I like a lot of the ideas you have here but one of the common gripes about fighting games is that you can never really learn them within the game itself, you always have to go to outside sources for information. Combined with some of the things you mentioned, having AI that gets upgrades would be a good way for people to learn. 

 

But the thing is, that most of the games you always need to go to external places to learn advanced stuff.

Teaching how the games work is not really exclussive from fgs, and in the case of competitive games, playing against bots wouldn't teach what is needed to play against real people, imo.

 

Also, We have games that have been taking their time to teach both fg fundamentals and the ins and outs of the specific games on Skullgirls, and many ASW games, MK11 and iirc, KI too.

So is not like there has not been an effort.

 

Edit

 

There is also the psychology thing that makes trying to learn by yourself a more dauting experience than learning the same concepts from a person.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Hecatom

[DarkSakul]

3 hours ago, RSG3 said:

Yea and you shouldn't have had to do that.

I agree. Day one the game should work "out of the box" not borked.

Funny thing is out of Platinum, Beth and CD Project Red, CD project Red has the games I had to mod or fix the least. Platinum stuff I always had to mod, even more so than Beth. 

 

3 hours ago, RSG3 said:

It's not a great excuse but it is one. What's Bethesdas reason for shitting the bed every launch on their preferred platform?

With some exceptions (i.e. Daggerfall), most of Bethesda's games will launch, perform and run normally. Just don't do certain things and quests don't get broken (like kill off the wrong NPC before the quest is complete). The most buggy game released from Beth was developed by Obsidian not Beth themselves (New Vegas). But now most of the mods I run on New Vegas are more to upgrade the visuals (like texture packs). 

[RSG3]

5 minutes ago, DarkSakul said:

Platinum stuff I always had to mod

That doesnt really surprise me. 

 

 

[iStu X]

54 minutes ago, RSG3 said:

That doesnt really surprise me. 

 

 

I too wanted to shoot more space russians in vanquish 

[DoctaMario]

Games are too long now

[Camacho]

4 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

Games are too long now

Mostly, and definitely so least in the case of games that have super bloated shitty side quests (i.e. collect all 76 of X item) padding that length.  

[DoctaMario]

9 minutes ago, Camacho said:

Mostly, and definitely so least in the case of games that have super bloated shitty side quests (i.e. collect all 76 of X item) padding that length.  

I legit don't understand people who measure the "value" of a game by how long it is. I'd rather play a great game with 2 hours of gameplay than one that's 40 hours, 30 of it padding. 

[Hawkingbird]

14 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

I legit don't understand people who measure the "value" of a game by how long it is. I'd rather play a great game with 2 hours of gameplay than one that's 40 hours, 30 of it padding. 

Because of the cost of games. Paying $60/70 on a game that will only last the weekend isn't desirable. Those people should wait for sales if they want bang for the buck.

[DoctaMario]

21 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

Because of the cost of games. Paying $60/70 on a game that will only last the weekend isn't desirable. Those people should wait for sales if they want bang for the buck.

I guess. For me, most games are like books, I'll probably play them once and then never again, but if a game doesn't really connect with me, then I probably don't want to play it for 40+ hours. 

[DarkSakul]

11 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

For me, most games are like books, I'll probably play them once and then never again,

And I don't want a Game I pay $60/70+ on that I beat with in a hour an never play again. 

The 40+ hour game means I would get a few weeks of Enjoyment out of my $60/70+ game.

[DoctaMario]

Just now, DarkSakul said:

And I don't want a Game I pay $60/70+ on that I beat with in a hour an never play again. 

The 40+ hour game means I would get a few weeks of Enjoyment out of my $60/70+ game.

We haven't had games that short probably since the PSX era. Any game that comes out us going to be at least 8-10 hours and that's probably after you have it figured out, nevermind the first run. 

[DarkSakul]

For me it's less about the length of game time and more so replay ability or Replay value
If I beat the game inside a Saturday afternoon and I NEVER play it again, it wasn't that good. 

I played games that were 40+ plus hours and I stop playing after an hour and never touch it agian, I also played 40+ hour games that I clocked 400+ hours on 

Buggy or crapy story or not. If I can't stand your game play, you have a bad game. If I clocked +400 hours into your game, you doing something right. 

[DoctaMario]

3 minutes ago, DarkSakul said:

For me it's less about the length of game time and more so replay ability or Replay value
If I beat the game inside a Saturday afternoon and I NEVER play it again, it wasn't that good. 

I played games that were 40+ plus hours and I stop playing after an hour and never touch it agian, I also played 40+ hour games that I clocked 400+ hours on 

Buggy or crapy story or not. If I can't stand your game play, you have a bad game. If I clocked +400 hours into your game, you doing something right. 

I agree with this. Tbh, these days I have less time to play, so if something is an epic, there's a chance I'll get busy, put it down, and when I go to pick it back up, may not remember where I left off. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by DoctaMario

[Hawkingbird]

29 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

I guess. For me, most games are like books, I'll probably play them once and then never again, but if a game doesn't really connect with me, then I probably don't want to play it for 40+ hours. 

I have less time for games these days so I appreciate the shorter games more. I will occasionally replay an old game but my backlog is too large for that.

[DangerousJ]

For single player games, I would ideally like somewhere between 6-15 hrs. With some exceptions (Yakuza) , it's rare that I enjoy longer games.

 

I do like some short games like platinum Transformers and Streets of Rage due to the gameplay being fun.

 

I have never really played any rpg so I have never really played a single player game that lasted more than 32 hrs for the main campaign.

Edited August 16, 2021 by DangerousJ

[Darc_Requiem]

I'm more concerned with games that are too long than too short. If a game is 7 hours but really good I'll play through at multiple times. Heck, ME1 is like 30 hours to a hundred percent. I've been through that games at least 16 times. I enjoyed Dragon Age Inquisition but I only finished it 3 times. The game would be long without any padding but it has padding. With all the DLC, it's well over one hundred hours to 100%. I planned to try out as many different choices as I could but I just can't sink in that much time into a game I already finished. My backlog has only gotten larger over the years. I may get to Cold Steel IV by the time I'm 50 😑

[KingTubb]

Dunkey just put this out:

 

He immediately makes the point that games are the cheapest they've ever been. And there aren't any games that cost $60 or more that only have an hour of stuff to do. Hell, most AAA $60+ games comes with some kind of multiplayer or post game mode that theoretically extends the games playability indefinitely. 

 

Plus so many games are straight up FREE now, or are included in subscription services (PS+ and Now, Game pass) that you could realistically get thousands of quality hours of gaming for like $60 a year. 

 

An example of which: PS5 owners get P5, MHW, RE7, Bloodborne... and 16 other pretty darn good games just for having PS+. And I've put in somewhere between 2-300 hours just between those 4 games

[Hawkingbird]

22 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

I'm more concerned with games that are too long than too short. If a game is 7 hours but really good I'll play through at multiple times. Heck, ME1 is like 30 hours to a hundred percent. I've been through that games at least 16 times. I enjoyed Dragon Age Inquisition but I only finished it 3 times. The game would be long without any padding but it has padding. With all the DLC, it's well over one hundred hours to 100%. I planned to try out as many different choices as I could but I just can't sink in that much time into a game I already finished. My backlog has only gotten larger over the years. I may get to Cold Steel IV by the time I'm 50 😑

I had Dragon Quest 11 since launch and I've been playing it on and off for over two years now. I think I'm only 50 hours in. I doubt I'm halfway through

[Darc_Requiem]

27 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

I had Dragon Quest 11 since launch and I've been playing it on and off for over two years now. I think I'm only 50 hours in. I doubt I'm halfway through

Yeah that's a long game. It's legit two games in one.  I play a lot of RPGs. Whenever you see me go MIA from fighting games, I'm focusing all my free time on a long RPG. 

[Faltimar the Dark]

A game with many hours use to be important I suppose.  When RPGs and ARPGs were at their most popular and some FPS games.  But that is an old thing imo.  Games don't really need to be long to be good or deliver a good experience.  Ive played games that are only 3 or 4 hours long but they were mad fun.  And they were cheap.

Also, I've just gotten older and don't have...I don't have the desire to sit and play a game/games for hour(s) upon hour(s).  Usually and hour or two here and there is good for me.  If a game is 40+ hours long its likely I'll never finish it.

[DarkSakul]

Fuck this shit
Just Emulate old  games. 

 

[TheInfernoman]

I don't care to emulate a game...Yes I'll be the guy who will pull out the old game boy color pop in batteries and replay my copy of Link's Awakening if I want to relive the game in it's pure state as it was originally intended. the only way I play anything emulated is via the official hardware (IE playing say Super Mario Kart from SNES via the Switch Online)

[Faltimar the Dark]

I see people say that a lot and it just seems like a silly and snobby attitude to me.  I play a lot of emulated shit and most of the time I never notice a difference from the original version of whatevers.  The things I do notice on occasion don't really have an effect on my enjoyment of a game.

[TheInfernoman]

6 minutes ago, Faltimar the Dark said:

I see people say that a lot and it just seems like a silly and snobby attitude to me.

Yeah and? I don't curr if I come off snobby...I will be me. 😎

[RSG3]

I do both. Both are pretty fun.

[Camacho]

SNK's KoF character designs for the last 15 years (mostly) make Duck King look cool 

[AriesWarlock]

Didn't they update Nier Automata in both Steam and Epic stores?

[Faltimar the Dark]

This is what I found about Nier Autmata updates on Steam.  Dunno about Epic.

[Seth Vega]

"Insanity" is not always insanity.

[DarkSakul]

On 8/26/2021 at 2:17 PM, Faltimar the Dark said:

This is what I found about Nier Autmata updates on Steam.

About time

[DoctaMario]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:24 PM, Seth Vega said:

"Insanity" is not always insanity.

Don't just leave us hanging with that, you gotta say more than just "insanity isn't always insanity."

[iStu X]

2 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

Don't just leave us hanging with that, you gotta say more than just "insanity isn't always insanity."

 
it’s b-tier. He’s  just going to spout off some stupid shit 

Edited September 7, 2021 by iStu X