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The Street Fighter V Thread, vol. 2

misterBee

By misterBee
in Fighting Game Discussion

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HeavensCloud Level 13

HeavensCloud

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Gotta get them clicks to keep the lights on. I haven't read but I'll guess that Velociraptor was pro SFIV and Catalyst was pro SFV.

Yep you got it.  Was civil for the most part but I think they overlooked some of the 'pros' that make each game good.  Catalyst was arguing that SFV's gameplay is an evolution of SF4 and that it made SF4 obsolete - which I don't really agree with.  Both games are just really different.  

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, HeavensCloud said:

Yep you got it.  Was civil for the most part but I think they overlooked some of the 'pros' that make each game good.  Catalyst was arguing that SFV's gameplay is an evolution of SF4 and that it made SF4 obsolete - which I don't really agree with.  Both games are just really different.  

I just watched it. It was basically what I expected except for Catalyst arguing SFIV was more balanced 🤨

 

Side Note: I had to break out the WD-40 for my brain because typing "expected" and "except" next to each other was fucking with me.

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, HeavensCloud said:

Catalyst was arguing that SFV's gameplay is an evolution of SF4 and that it made SF4 obsolete -

 

LMAO imagine somebody owning a whole FGV website and saying this with a straight face?

 

SF4l had a lot of high points to its game. Unfortunately people don't remember the game fairly. 

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Sonero said:

 

LMAO imagine somebody owning a whole FGV website and saying this with a straight face?

 

SF4l had a lot of high points to its game. Unfortunately people don't remember the game fairly. 

While I just took shots at those SFIV fans, because as I'll always say. You can shit on Smashers but they backed up their Melee fandom. Dudes lugged around heavy CRTs and Gamecubes to run their own scene. SFIV "fans" just bitched comment sections and Twitch chat. I put fans in parentheses because the actual fans tried to organize a scene for the game and lot these so called fans didn't' support it. They want a SFIV with Capcom backing it, which wasn't going to happen. Nintendo actually discourages a Melee scene, so lack of company support is piss poor excuse. Pandemic isn't an excuse because they had years before it struck. Although ironically Marvel Infinite developed its own community and it managed to grow during the pandemic due to solid netcode.  I guess those dudes really did like their game.

 

Side note: Marvel 3 heads seem to really support their game too.

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

While I just took shots at those SFIV fans, because as I'll always say. You can shit on Smashers but they backed up their Melee fandom. Dudes lugged around heavy CRTs and Gamecubes to run their own scene. SFIV "fans" just bitched comment sections and Twitch chat. I put fans in parentheses because the actual fans tried to organize a scene for the game and lot these so called fans didn't' support it. They want a SFIV with Capcom backing it, which wasn't going to happen. Nintendo actually discourages a Melee scene, so lack of company support is piss poor excuse. Pandemic isn't an excuse because they had years before it struck. Although ironically Marvel Infinite developed its own community and it managed to grow during the pandemic due to solid netcode.  I guess those dudes really did like their game.

 

Side note: Marvel 3 heads seem to really support their game too.

Honestly, bringing in new players for SF4 really requires the online to be relatively functional. Most players don't come in randomly to local events (if they even have them) or arcades, look at SF4, and be like "yeah, I wanna focus on this". Especially during a pandemic. Yes, it's not reasonable to expect Capcom to provide official support for a tournament scene for a previous entry in the series. The reality is that you can't just play the base game online as it is and expect to lure in new players. That's not even talking about the game itself and why it might not be appetizing to a new player base, but that's not relevant in this conversation in my opinion.

 

Perhaps the easiest and most cost-effective method would be to run parsec tournaments similar to how Mvc3 has been run. Otherwise, I can understand where whiny comment sections are coming from. Doesn't make it right tho.

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted

@elliephilThe pandemic isn't an excuse because they didn't support the game before hand. It would be one thing if they had something going and the pandemic killed the momentum. There was no momentum to kill. They didn't have anything going in 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. If they took all the time they spent complaining about SFV in Twitch chat and in comment sections to play SFIV. They'd have a community. They just don't want to put in the work.

 

As someone that games across multiple genres, I see what actual fans of game will do. I just posted about Mass Effect fans adding back Pinnacle Station to Legendary Edition on PC when Bioware couldn't be bothered to. Trails of fans translated Trails of Zero and Trails of Azure because Falcom couldn't be bothered to do so. They did such a good job, NIS America is porting the games and hired them to handle the official localization. Hell dude, with extremely limited tools, is modding Thanos, Cyclops, Psyclocke, and Bison into MvC3. Meanwhile, when people tried to organize shit for SFIV, all these "fans" had to do was show up. They couldn't even manage that. 

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Darc_Requiem said:

You can shit on Smashers but they backed up their Melee fandom.

 

Look I gotta reiterate this: You cannot compare Smash to the FGC. Smash has had 5 games to their whole hobby. If all of the FGC was concentrated on solely 5 games, you'd see certain older games be bigger.

 

The gift and the curse of the FGC is that there is something for everybody. That means people can split off into whichever games plays how they like best. So everybody gets divided up in a million games.

 

On the plus side, look at all the work PsychoBlue has done for SFxT. That game is getting a good "dead game" resurgence and its all basically on his shoulders.

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

@elliephilThe pandemic isn't an excuse because they didn't support the game before hand. It would be one thing if they had something going and the pandemic killed the momentum. There was no momentum to kill. They didn't have anything going in 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. If they took all the time they spent complaining about SFV in Twitch chat and in comment sections to play SFIV. They'd have a community. They just don't want to put in the work.

 

As someone that games across multiple genres, I see what actual fans of game will do. I just posted about Mass Effect fans adding back Pinnacle Station to Legendary Edition on PC when Bioware couldn't be bothered to. Trails of fans translated Trails of Zero and Trails of Azure because Falcom couldn't be bothered to do so. They did such a good job, NIS America is porting the games and hired them to handle the official localization. Hell dude, with extremely limited tools, is modding Thanos, Cyclops, Psyclocke, and Bison into MvC3. Meanwhile, when people tried to organize shit for SFIV, all these "fans" had to do was show up. They couldn't even manage that. 

Their efforts to get more people involved with the game were maybe lackluster compared to others, but there was definitely an attempt. Twitch stream monsters and players are not the same thing. Expecting to keep this game relevant through online play is not realistic right now without serious investments that go beyond starting a hashtag, discord server, facebook group, etc. SF4 was played at every major offline event in some capacity. The same people who started in SF4 playing online are not the same people who play online fighting games now. Online is held to a much higher standard than before. There are other options available.

 

Local scenes near where I live pushed the SF4 revival thing as best they could within their circles since a lot of them did enjoy playing. Bringing in NEW PLAYERS is difficult because A) most of them come from online now and don't want to deal with it's trash netcode and B) there are so many other games they would rather be playing, ideally newer games. You can't force someone to play something they don't want to play. You have to make it appealing. Right now, it doesn't look that appealing. And so in that sense, you are right, they could be doing more.

 

I agree, there hasn't really been that much work aside from the really passionate few that still play frequently. If you look at games that have had a revival of some sort in the past few years, it almost entirely happens due to an upgrade to netplay and/or accessibility. Example, literally everything on fightcade, nulldc bear, etc. The closest thing I think SF4 players could do right now to revive the game without putting in some serious work would be to run parsec events, similar to mvc3 (which was also in a similar situation).

Edited by elliephil
typo
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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Sonero said:

Look I gotta reiterate this: You cannot compare Smash to the FGC. Smash has had 5 games to their whole hobby. If all of the FGC was concentrated on solely 5 games, you'd see certain older games be bigger.

I'm not comparing Smash to the FGC. I comparing it to SFIV fans. I specifically listed other fans across other game genres that did more than just bitch in comments sections. I've seen what dedicated fans do. A lot of these so called SFIV fans are frauds. If you've got more than a half decade cry like bitch in comment sections you got time build your community. In short, be about it our shut up about it.

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

I'm not comparing Smash to the FGC. I comparing it to SFIV fans.

You still can't.

 

Smash fans had one viable game they came in with: Melee. Thats their real break out star for the competitive side. After that you had Brawl, 4 and ultimate. But realistically you have Melee and the new game. 

 

People who came in with SF4 did so into a community that has a multitude of games within it that all play different. Hell in SF2 alone you have 2 viable alternatives in HF and ST. So if you jumped in you had....HF, ST, 3S, A2, A3, SF4 and SF5. All of those games have a lot of merit to them. Smashers get Melee or their new game thst doesn't really differ too much mechanically from the old game.

 

 

Thats why it is way easier to keep melee alive. There aren't really a lot of viable alternatives to it. SF4 releases, you just learned about fighting games and then suddenly you had other non-SF games to compete for players. When you looked at it numbers wise, FGC has always had more people. The problem is that they aren't all on one game or series like Smashers are. 

 

So nah, not even trying to keep it to an SF vs Smash comparison really clears up the problem of there just being more viable alternatives to play.

 

Dayaan is a really good example of this. He went from smash, was in the FGC for half a second and skipped SF4 and SF5 to go straight to 3S. He has played a bit of a bunch of other games. But dude went into the forbidden lands like some bratty Simba at the elephant graveyard.

 

So it is what it is. Its like the thing with NRS games. Numbers wise there should be a bigger legacy audience for SF4 than older titles but for some reason there isnt; same way that the NRS competitive scene should be way bigger than it is but somehow it isnt.

 

 

Comparing most FGs to the Melee situation isn't really useful or fruitful.

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted

@SoneroThen why haven't they, like Dayaan, moved on to something else? Why are still still bitching and crying about SFIV? I'll tell you why. They aren't fans of SFIV. They like SFIV. There is a difference. A fan will at least do the bare minimum. They won't do that because they really aren't fans of the game. They simply like it and will only play if someone else does all the work and it's convenient for them. 

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

@SoneroThen why haven't they, like Dayaan, moved on to something else? Why are still still bitching and crying about SFIV? I'll tell you why. They aren't fans of SFIV. They like SFIV. There is a difference. A fan will at least do the bare minimum. They won't do that because they really aren't fans of the game. They simply like it and will only play if someone else does all the work and it's convenient for them. 

 

Squigga who are you mad at? You like one SF game that you barely have time to play. How ca you know that much about some shit you don't like at all?

 

I go searching for things because I'm a nut. But when tournaments were still happening, there was a group of people doing SF4 side tourneys. Stuff like Tournament of Legends and Jazzy Circuit take time to put together though.

 

But why is it that the game with wack online isn't as populated as the new games and some of the older games? 🤷‍♂️

 

Doesn't mean that comparing it to Melee still makes 0 sense. Hell now even Melee has better online because of slippi.

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Sonero said:

Squigga who are you mad at? You like one SF game that you barely have time to play. How ca you know that much about some shit you don't like at all?

I'm annoyed at SFIV frauds claiming to be fans. I've seen fans of games, they aint it. But as for who I'm mad. Right now it's you nigga. Did you have the gall to open your mouth and tell me SF is some shit I don't like at all? REALLY NIGGA. I know fuck all about forums, but I rigged up some shit because I'm actually fan of the community. I've spent more money SF than any franchise. Period. I've spent hundreds of hours of my free time writing shit about Street Fighter for no monetary gain. So you can miss me with that bullshit.

Edited by Darc_Requiem
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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

@SoneroThen why haven't they, like Dayaan, moved on to something else? Why are still still bitching and crying about SFIV? I'll tell you why. They aren't fans of SFIV. They like SFIV. There is a difference. A fan will at least do the bare minimum. They won't do that because they really aren't fans of the game. They simply like it and will only play if someone else does all the work and it's convenient for them. 

Not everyone has the time or expertise to do that. Also, what is the bare minimum?

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Right now it's you nigga. Did you have the gall to open your mouth and tell me SF is some shit I don't like at all?

 

I said you have one SF game you like: SF5 and you barely play that. For better or worse you aren't loading up SF5 on the daily. You like 3S, but I've seen you actively play that once in the last 3 years.

 

So considering that you barely have time to play, why are you so mad at what other people are doing?

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

The bare minimum would be to support the people that do have the time or expertise.

There is no one currently attempting to overhaul the online experience which tbh, should not be on the player base to fix (even though often times it is, ie. Melty Blood). The alternative is parsec which costs actual real dollary doos to run properly.

 

As I said, there was plenty of offline presence before the pandemic and hopefully more now that events are returning. Let's hope that support continues for those, I would call that the bare minimum.

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted

The problem is that  whether or not there are enough with the capital in both money and skills to do something similar to what ST and 3S did is a weird thing to get mad at. 3S has the biggest amount of "I like that game" than any other SF game period. The amount of people who like 3S because Maximilian likes makes SF4 look like some doujin trash that gets run at A-Cho for funsies.

 

But that scene has older sufficiently older players that can afford to make their game into a more dedicated hobby. That's not really the case with SF4. There are people already doing work but they aren't advertising the best. Punk ran a bunch of money matches in SF4, Smug still streams it occasionally, there's a scene in Europe running weeklies etc.

 

We could look at every game released during the PS360 era and make the same arguments he did, compared them to melee and arrive at nowhere productive in particular. If the new SamSho came out, how come more people aren't playing SSV: Special like they do Melee? Its the same shit that goes around ignoring a lot of other factors that make growth harder with Fighting Games than it did for Smash.

 

Comparing anything to melee doesn't hold much weight, comparing it to pre-08 games doesn't hold much weight either because the people who grew up playing pre-08 games are in different places financially and in mentality.

 

What's going on here is that EH said some dumb shit, some stream monsters said some other dumb shit and now there's a conversation about why people don't play Rev2 like they do Strive.

 

This is all form somebody who actually looked into wtf was going on with USF4 and dug up numbers and events etc. They could be doing more, they don't have strong community leaders yet. Anyways here's the top 8 for USF4 back in CEO 2019:

 

 

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Sonero said:

So considering that you barely have time to play, why are you so mad at what other people are doing?

I've literally said the answer to this question ad nauseum. It's be five and half years. If you don't like SFV why are spending so much of your time following it and bitching about SFIV. I don't actively seek out SFIV, yet I'm subject to their constant whining. I'm tired of their shit. They ain't what they pretend to be. SFIV's netcode ain't great but it's playable if you are close enough. Given how many of them I see their should be enough of them, with actual fans that are really playing, to be in close enough proximity to get some decent games in. 

 

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

SFIV's netcode ain't great but it's playable if you are close enough.

No, it's not. You're playing a significantly different game at that point due to how buffer, piano linking, framekill, etc works. Netplay will always have a minimum threshold for input delay and it's even worse given that's it is crappy variable delay based netcode. A friend and I tested this out when USF4 switched from Games for Windows Live to Steam at my place. We were in the same room connected to the same router and there was observable input delay, which undermines a large part of how SF4 is supposed to be played. Not to say you can't play the game on it, just not to it's fullest potential which is where everyone wants it to be. Otherwise, they wouldn't be whining about it lol

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Darc_Requiem said:

. If you don't like SFV why are spending so much of your time following it and bitching about SFIV. I don't actively seek out SFIV, yet I'm subject to their constant whining.

 

Nah this is mad disingenuous. I was moderating a forum dedicated SF games while being a TO planning to do bigger things. I had plenty of reasons to keep track of a lot of different things.

 

Even with all that the most amount of possible whining would be from stream monsters. So yeah, I agree that SF4 shouldn't have dropped off as sharply as it did on SF5's release. But in the year 2021 of our Lord, where a brand new game came and died in less than a year because of super shitty netcode (GBVS), how are we talking about USF4's trash ass netcode as it letting that game do anything but rot?

 

The experience Elliephel shared is the one local people had in real time. Couldn't play online even though they were neighbors in the same street. While offline were going on? Some people could've definitely stepped up more. But now. Fam stop tripping.

 

If you ignore stream monsters and Event hubs article, the chance of you running into somebody talking about SF4 being better than SF5 are basically zero.

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Sonero said:

 

Nah this is mad disingenuous. I was moderating a forum dedicated SF games while being a TO planning to do bigger things. I had plenty of reasons to keep track of a lot of different things.

 

Even with all that the most amount of possible whining would be from stream monsters. So yeah, I agree that SF4 shouldn't have dropped off as sharply as it did on SF5's release. But in the year 2021 of our Lord, where a brand new game came and died in less than a year because of super shitty netcode (GBVS), how are we talking about USF4's trash ass netcode as it letting that game do anything but rot?

 

The experience Elliephel shared is the one local people had in real time. Couldn't play online even though they were neighbors in the same street. While offline were going on? Some people could've definitely stepped up more. But now. Fam stop tripping.

 

If you ignore stream monsters and Event hubs article, the chance of you running into somebody talking about SF4 being better than SF5 are basically zero.

I've been calling this bullshit since before COVID was thing. It's disingenuous to pretend there was something for COVID kill. These people were crying and not showing up before the pandemic. Let's not say they'd suddenly show up after four years of sitting around with their thumbs up their asses. I've been calling this shit out since at least 2018. You've spent more time and effort in this back forth than these clowns did on their supposed game of choice.

 

Edit: Let me be clear, I'm not saying their aren't any SFIV fans. I'm saying most the people bitching on line aren't. 

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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

Posted
Posted
On 11/8/2021 at 7:40 AM, Volt said:

No need to click this.

 

A good port and rollback.

The article makes a fair point that lobbies and spectator modes would be an important social aspect of these ports, but I think a lot of the ports are done on shoestring budgets. 

 

Fightcade is an amazing resource and has given a lot of old games a second life, but it's objectively the worst way to play most of them, it's just just very approachable because it's free and it does have lobbies and spectator modes. 

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Darc_Requiem Level 19

Darc_Requiem

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Sonero said:

Stop being mad at stream monsters and people who comment on EH articles.

 

FFS squigga. You are tick throwing yourself when you do that.

You are confusing mad with annoyed. The only thing that made me angry is you calling my fandom into question on series I've spend thousands of dollars on and endless hours on and have literally been playing for 30 years. I don't run any tournaments but I happily donate to pot bonus so the players that can play at a level I'd never reach in million years get something for their time. That pissed me off. Mad is me at these scam callers that have been calling my job off an on for the past 6 years trying to talk Winn Dixie when A) There isn't a Winn Dixie in my state and B) When I work for an electrical distributor and not a fucking grocery store. 

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DoctaMario Level 17

DoctaMario

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Sonero said:

 We could look at every game released during the PS360 era and make the same arguments he did, compared them to melee and arrive at nowhere productive in particular. If the new SamSho came out, how come more people aren't playing SSV: Special like they do Melee? Its the same shit that goes around ignoring a lot of other factors that make growth harder with Fighting Games than it did for Smash.

 

Comparing anything to melee doesn't hold much weight, comparing it to pre-08 games doesn't hold much weight either because the people who grew up playing pre-08 games are in different places financially and in mentality.

 

 

Talk about comparisons that aren't fair to make. SamSho is pretty niche compared to Smash, hell compared to SF, but there's objectively more of a scene for 5 Special than there is for SS2019, in part because the netcode situation is better and it's available free on Shitecade. 

 

There's really no reason to play SF4 unless you just really like the game. It looks worse, plays worse, sounds worse, and the netcode is worse than SFV. It's amusing tho how little anyone seems to play it anymore, even here in TN which was a bit of a hotspot for the game and the locals I was going to would play ST, 3s, SFV, even Alpha sometimes, but never 4.

 

Its also interesting to see playerbases that are fairly spoiled for competition who never really have to work to find games just let the game sink like a rock the minute they actually have to do some work beyond turning on the console to find a match. 

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, elliephil said:

It shouldn't have but I totally get why. 5 years later and I'm still burnt out lol

Yeah SF4 ruled the roost for 8 years straight, 2008 -- 2016.  I'm a fan of the game, but I still don't want to hear about until about 2 years into SF6's lifespan. 

 

Those flyers advertising a SF4 revival barely a year into SFV were doomed to fail.  

 

I'm a fan of ice cream too but I can't eat it 24/7.

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, DoctaMario said:

Talk about comparisons that aren't fair to make. SamSho is pretty niche compared to Smash, hell compared to SF, but there's objectively more of a scene for 5 Special than there is for SS2019, in part because the netcode situation is better and it's available free on Shitecade. 

 

There's really no reason to play SF4 unless you just really like the game. It looks worse, plays worse, sounds worse, and the netcode is worse than SFV. It's amusing tho how little anyone seems to play it anymore, even here in TN which was a bit of a hotspot for the game and the locals I was going to would play ST, 3s, SFV, even Alpha sometimes, but never 4.

 

Its also interesting to see playerbases that are fairly spoiled for competition who never really have to work to find games just let the game sink like a rock the minute they actually have to do some work beyond turning on the console to find a match. 

Yeah 5sp is the high point of its franchise, and it's free and runs on a potato. Even if the new game had Strive netcode, 5sp is still the better game due to the movement mechanics. 

 

Melee too has great movement mechanics. And its successor punishes attempts at same, and 4 was as slow as an SF game. 

 

But barring sequels that suck for semi-competitive, I'm not at all surprised that most of a playerbase drops the old game for the new.  That's how humanity and the game industry usually work.  If it didn't, the game industry wouldn't be so sequel driven in general. 

 

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Sonero Level 17

Sonero

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Darc_Requiem said:

The only thing that made me angry is you calling my fandom into question on series I've spend thousands of dollars on and endless hours on and have literally been playing for 30 years.

 

What?

 

I didn't "question your fandom. I said you basically only really like playing one of the games. You'll play 3S, but from all the postings your favorite in the series is SF5.

 

 

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elliephil Level 15

elliephil

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Pair of Rooks said:

Those flyers advertising a SF4 revival barely a year into SFV were doomed to fail. 

I think the way internet works, putting things like flyers out is just an invitation to skepticism. Maybe with streaming (and social media connected to it) being more accessible these days, I think the best way to get others into something is through word-of-mouth.

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Mattatsu Level 14

Mattatsu

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Darc_Requiem said:

Yeah I'm not the type to be rude or hang up on people at work, but these motherfuckers......

I had my fourth call from a duct cleaning company this week (that always has a different phone number), and I blurted out “I don’t have ducts… I don’t even have air! I don’t breathe… I’m dead… Take me off your calling list”.

 

still get fucking calls 😭

 

Edited by Mattatsu
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