The Street Fighter V Thread

[BornWinner]

It probably helps that no projectiles clash at all in NRS  games so if you see someone throw one, you have to avoid it or armor through it. It can be especially hard if your character does not have a teleport or projectile counter.

[BornWinner]

Double posting but here’s a Giovanna by the same woman who did the character art for BBTag.

[Hawkingbird]

22 minutes ago, Sonero said:

 

All projectiles go the same speed so they give "zoning" characters 30 different ones to do the same job Guile does with 3 sonic booms.

 

C'mon guy.

They give them 30 to cover different distances and/or angles. Some have different functions. Superman has two lasers with one being a big damage instant one compared to his standard one that's slower but covers more ground.

[Darc_Requiem]

I hate Lucky Glauber but I can still appreciate this.

[Sonero]

46 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

They give them 30 to cover different distances and/or angles. Some have different functions.

 

Exactly my point.  its not like NRS games have super jump height, but the characters are built like it.

 

After X amount of options, you're just diving into the ridiculous.

[Hawkingbird]

15 minutes ago, Sonero said:

 

Exactly my point.  its not like NRS games have super jump height, but the characters are built like it.

 

After X amount of options, you're just diving into the ridiculous.

It doesn't need super jump height. Projectiles are easy to avoid if you know what to do. 

[KingTubb]

3 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

Projectiles are easy to avoid if you know what to do. 

👀

[Mr.Cipher]

NRS Zoning is whack.

No clashes make it extra whack.

 

Can't see the appeal of these games anyway. If you want a 2D Fighter you have lots of options.

If you want 3D there are multiple options.

 

NRS won't even have their one strong point left once Strive is out, with having good Netplay.

[Sonero]

Check out his poster for an ST tournament:

 

[Hawkingbird]

39 minutes ago, Mr.Cipher said:

NRS Zoning is whack.

No clashes make it extra whack.

 

Can't see the appeal of these games anyway. If you want a 2D Fighter you have lots of options.

If you want 3D there are multiple options.

 

NRS won't even have their one strong point left once Strive is out, with having good Netplay.

You sound whack. No clashes makes projectiles strong as you are forced to avoid them. It also makes projectile wars more interesting as whoever has the more favorable trade gains control. I like how some zoning options outright shuts down others. I find that dynamic a lot of fun. 

[Mr.Cipher]

I too find it a lot of fun, to bring a Shotgun to a knife fight and say "GG no re", before pulling the Trigger.

 

Forcing people to avoid projectiles doesn't make them strong, it makes them badly designed.

If you have a projectile you should be able to engage in a projectile war and slowly gain advantage/lose advantage by choosing your options.

Just giving characters 50 different projectiles and saying the rocket launcher beats 9/10 options, but loses to the space laser, because it comes from atop! is not something good.

It's very static and loses a lot of the dynamic and choice making a good old fireball war will force you to make.

 

Dunno why someone thinks this is a good idea. The last thing you would want in projectile wars is not having clashes.

[Shakunetsu]

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Shakunetsu

[Volt]

9 minutes ago, Shakunetsu said:

https://twitter.com/ShotoGamer/status/1397600260445204484

 

I'm surprised no one went with the Lionel Ritchie "Hello? Is it me you're looking for?" Montage yet.

[Vhozite]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Cipher said:

Forcing people to avoid projectiles doesn't make them strong, it makes them badly designed.

If you have a projectile you should be able to engage in a projectile war and slowly gain advantage/lose advantage by choosing your options.

Lol so Dan should be able to hang with Sagat because he has a fireball? 
 

In MK no clashes means differences in projectile properties aren’t trivialized because they have the same amount of hits.  More characters can have plasma and still maintain a large difference in their ability to control space. 
 

Also you’re forced to avoid fireballs against characters with superior firepower, but in MK most projectiles can be easily avoided by holding/tapping down without blocking. It’s not like Street Fighter where 100% avoiding a fireball requires special move properties or jumping and losing your ability to block for 40+ frames.

[Sonero]

50 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

It also makes projectile wars more interesting as whoever has the more favorable trade gains control.

 

Sonia shoots rings.

Sub Zero counters by shooting ice ball.

They pass by each other because Ed Boon doesn't know wtf he is doing.

Sub Zero gets hit by rings, left standing up.

Sonia gets hit by ice ball, frozen in place.

Sub Zero dashes up 3 times because ice ball capture state is 10,000 frames and gets a full combo.

You got "outplayed".

 

 

 

Squigga you were avoiding chip damage in SF2 too. Hell you had to avoid projectiles in MvC3 because they dealt hella chip damage. Matter of fact, there's a lot of games where avoiding projectiles is the right thing to do. Thats not an NRS thing.

 

But dumb shit trades, thats the NRS special.

 

 

[Shakunetsu]

So how do you feel with Darkstalkers projectile game?

[Mr.Cipher]

5 minutes ago, Vhozite said:

Lol so Dan should be able to hang with Sagat because he has a fireball? 
 

In MK no clashes means differences in projectile properties aren’t trivialized because they have the same amount of hits.  More characters can have plasma and still maintain a large difference in their ability to control space. 
 

Also you’re forced to avoid fireballs against characters with superior firepower, but in MK most projectiles can be easily avoided by holding/tapping down without blocking. It’s not like Street Fighter where 100% avoiding a fireball requires special move properties or jumping and losing your ability to block for 40+ frames.

 

1) Excellent way to take something completly out of context and interpret it wrong. Dan would NEVER engage in a fireball war, as his Gadoken is a Pressure Tool, not something to control space with. (at least not large amounts) and while it can projectile clash, what means he can negate fireballs with it. Dan would never do this.

I mean sure you could still try it, but this would end like NRS, where Sagats fireballs just pass trough Dans Gadoken, cause they have a lifespan of 10 frames.

 

2) So anime.

But wait anime still has clashes. 

Might is be, that clashes provide an integral part of Zoning gameplay? 

Like Tager has one of the dumbest fireballs in the entirety of BB. It's extremly fast, is like +30, gets him a full Combo from anywhere on the screen and is Level 2.

There is basically not a single normal projectile in the game that is Level 2, outside of 2. Lambdas and Nus 5Ds and they lose Level 2 after a couple of frames. Means the moment Tager has Spark Bolt, he has the "I win the fireball war" card in his hand. 

Why do I say this? Because you now have to avoid the Spark Bolt and actively play around it. And the game has projectile clashes and most characters need something equal to a super to counter it.

Projectiles just passing trough each other is not something good, it is incredible bad. I wanted to mention Subs Iceball, but Pertho beat me to it, so there you have that example.

 

3) I am not forced to avoid better fireballs. I am forced to deal with them. 

So I either have to play around them or put me in a situation where they lose their advantage.

I am aware of the dodge, this just shows the problem and highlights it more, not fixes it.

One of the rewards of effective zoning is chip damage pilling up. So you make the Choice between jumping avoiding the Chip but losing a lot more ground/potential more control of the match or just blocking and deal with the consequences.

 

So no again NRS idea to how to handle zoning/fireballs is not good.

Right now they try to do what ASW always did and just throw more systems and mechanics on the mountain in hope no one will notice that they have a design flaw in their games.

[Sonero]

Game is dead.

 

We can complain about it being ass too when they make a new one.

 

👺👺👺

[Reticently]

Just in terms of how projectiles get managed, I like the Marvel games' approach, where there's a big enough variance in projectile properties that there's genuine nuance to the interactions.

 

But that said, how you do or don't like your projectiles interacting is pretty much a sidebar to what the best balance for zoning is.  The worst situation is when the balance is so far in either direction for or against the zoner that one player never feels like they get to really play.  But I'm not sure what the best balance is, because that could have a lot of different looks.

[Mattatsu]

I’m surprised this wasn’t posted yet (or maybe I missed it) but the rumours were true

 

 

[Illwill88]

2 minutes ago, Mattatsu said:

I’m surprised this wasn’t posted yet (or maybe I missed it) but the rumours were true

 

 

I just saw and was coming to post this lol.

 

Let's go, I know Sega stripped stuff from their other "xesports" projects I hope they didn't do the same to this. Still pretty hyped.

[Mattatsu]

6 minutes ago, Illwill88 said:

I just saw and was coming to post this lol.

 

Let's go, I know Sega stripped stuff from their other "xesports" projects I hope they didn't do the same to this. Still pretty hyped.

Yeah, I’m hyped too and happy it’s free. Suddenly I care a whole lot less about rollback, which I’m sure it doesn’t have tbh

[Hawkingbird]

34 minutes ago, Sonero said:

 

Sonia shoots rings.

Sub Zero counters by shooting ice ball.

They pass by each other because Ed Boon doesn't know wtf he is doing.

Sub Zero gets hit by rings, left standing up.

Sonia gets hit by ice ball, frozen in place.

Sub Zero dashes up 3 times because ice ball capture state is 10,000 frames and gets a full combo.

You got "outplayed".

 

 

 

Squigga you were avoiding chip damage in SF2 too. Hell you had to avoid projectiles in MvC3 because they dealt hella chip damage. Matter of fact, there's a lot of games where avoiding projectiles is the right thing to do. Thats not an NRS thing.

 

But dumb shit trades, thats the NRS special.

 

 

Boon knows exactly what he's doing. It being unconventional doesn't make it shit. That exact scenario is what I like about NRS zoning. You can't get into a projectile war with sub because his will put you in a capture state. If your dumb enough to do that than he deserves his free combo. 

[Illwill88]

36 minutes ago, Mattatsu said:

Yeah, I’m hyped too and happy it’s free. Suddenly I care a whole lot less about rollback, which I’m sure it doesn’t have tbh

Yeah I've come into this pretty much expecting no rollback.  The good thing is vf5's netcode was supposed to be pretty decent, I haven't used it before but I've seen people streaming it here and there and never saw anything sus. 

 

I'm still holding out hope that since it's competitive focused that maybe Sega put a little work into the netcode.

[Hawkingbird]

1 hour ago, Mr.Cipher said:

3) I am not forced to avoid better fireballs. I am forced to deal with them. 

So I either have to play around them or put me in a situation where they lose their advantage.

I am aware of the dodge, this just shows the problem and highlights it more, not fixes it.

One of the rewards of effective zoning is chip damage pilling up. So you make the Choice between jumping avoiding the Chip but losing a lot more ground/potential more control of the match or just blocking and deal with the consequences.

In the way how NRS zoning works you are still rewarded for effective zoning. If you manage to duck and dodge every projectile thrown at you the zoner is still rewarded with meter built up. Pre MK11, doing specials is the second best way of building meter. With all that meter built up you can mix things up with meter burn specials. Superman EX lasers has a second hit that's an overhead.  Sub-Zero EX ice ball is faster, hits mid and eat other projectiles. Not closing the gap will have you dealing with consequences.

[Vhozite]

1 hour ago, Mr.Cipher said:

 

1) Excellent way to take something completly out of context and interpret it wrong. 

Lol it was on purpose. That is exactly what you do the MK every time you talk about it. All your complaints are basically the same old copy/paste comments from people who don’t actually play it. 

[Sonero]

53 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

Boon knows exactly what he's doing. It being unconventional doesn't make it shit. That exact scenario is what I like about NRS zoning.

 

Yeah, Boon spent decades making bad games. Thats an interaction that creates an active disincentive against using tools. You gotta hope that your projectile was giving extra gimmicks or just forgot the move exists.

 

SF5 did the same thing to a bunch of projectiles through v-triggers and EX moves and it's bad. In this case SF5 bad ideas are baked into the zoning. At least in SF games, and other FGs, if your projectile isn't the best, it at least helps you fight a defensive war against the better one; that way you aren't tits up doing the macarena because somebody's eyebrows became sentient and insisted on making a fighting game.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Hawkingbird said:

Pre MK11, doing specials is the second best way of building meter. With all that meter built up you can mix things up with meter burn specials.

 

Same thing happens in SF games. Hell same thing happens in a lot of 2D games. 

 

The only thing non-trade projectiles have really done is let them make glitter projectiles. They can make them look all funky because its a style over substance franchise. So yeah sure, let a rifle shoot 5 bullets in a row because its fancy no trade balancing. 

 

They just wanna hamfistedly toss out stuff. Thats fine but its also what it is.

[Doctrine_Dark]

You know, I really only expected my VT2 Cammy to be an experimental phase. I wanted to see how I'd play without having VT1 to fallback on.  Now I really can't go back to VT1. 

 

Anyway, I'm excited for Virtua Fighter. I played a shyt ton of Final Showdown yrs back. 

[Sonero]

7 minutes ago, Doctrine_Dark said:

You know, I

 

We gotta play. Think after the first wt of buffs, Cammy v Ryu is 5/5.

[KingTubb]

2 hours ago, Mattatsu said:

I’m surprised this wasn’t posted yet (or maybe I missed it) but the rumours were true

 

 

I know man, Squadrons is free next month!

 

THAT GAME RULES 

 

time to make an MS squad 

[Sonero]

5 minutes ago, KingTubb said:

THAT GAME RULES 

 

Is it space dog fights?

[Hawkingbird]

11 minutes ago, Sonero said:

Yeah, Boon spent decades making bad games. Thats an interaction that creates an active disincentive against using tools. You gotta hope that your projectile was giving extra gimmicks or just forgot the move exists.

Moves like that has always existed. SF4 Ultras took away tools from characters. Ryu couldn't throw a fireball at Rufus from midscreen if he had U1 on deck.  Elphelt will not give you a turn if you let her get any momentum in Xrd. You can't chuck plasma at Shiki in Sam Sho 19 unless you want to throw the round and get bopped by her super special. MK ain't special in this regard. 

 

19 minutes ago, Sonero said:

Same thing happens in SF games. Hell same thing happens in a lot of 2D games. 

 

The only thing non-trade projectiles have really done is let them make glitter projectiles. They can make them look all funky because its a style over substance franchise. So yeah sure, let a rifle shoot 5 bullets in a row because its fancy no trade balancing. 

 

They just wanna hamfistedly toss out stuff. Thats fine but its also what it is.

Not it rate that happens in NRS games. Meter builds super quick. You'll get even more meter if attacks get blocked. You'll get very little for actually landing hits. 

[KingTubb]

6 minutes ago, Sonero said:

Is it space dog fights?

yeah, it's just star wars ace combat (sorta) 

 

It's a great game, one of my GOATYs from last year 

[Mattatsu]

32 minutes ago, KingTubb said:

yeah, it's just star wars ace combat (sorta) 

 

It's a great game, one of my GOATYs from last year 

Yeah, Squadrons is actually dope. I haven’t played it nearly enough though. I wanted to beat the campaign before going online but gave up because I vastly preferred the empire over the rebels (tie fighters had less shit to worry about).

 

@Vhozitei remember you getting this as well. Was it on PC or PS4?

[Volt]

3 hours ago, Vhozite said:

Lol so Dan should be able to hang with Sagat because he has a fireball? 

 

Like that ever happened! 🤣

[DoctaMario]

2 hours ago, Hawkingbird said:

Boon knows exactly what he's doing. It being unconventional doesn't make it shit. That exact scenario is what I like about NRS zoning. You can't get into a projectile war with sub because his will put you in a capture state. If your dumb enough to do that than he deserves his free combo. 

The main argument people who don't like NRS games usually throw out there is "it doesn't feel enough like games I usually play" in so many words, and this thread is no different 😂

Edited May 26, 2021 by DoctaMario

[Vhozite]

3 hours ago, Sonero said:

 

Sonia shoots rings.

Sub Zero counters by shooting ice ball.

They pass by each other because Ed Boon doesn't know wtf he is doing.

Sub Zero gets hit by rings, left standing up.

Sonia gets hit by ice ball, frozen in place.

Sub Zero dashes up 3 times because ice ball capture state is 10,000 frames and gets a full combo.

You got "outplayed".

 

 

Lol this whole section is scrub quotes material 

 

Sub Ice has 1000f startup, travels super slow, and iirc does no damage while being easily avoidable by ducking. If you get hit by it you deserve to be comboed because he read you like a book or you’re being predictable.
 

You’re not supposed to throw fireballs at him Willy nilly because of this exact situation lmao. It’s like saying DPs are dumb because they AA jumps with their I-frames

[Vhozite]

1 hour ago, Mattatsu said:

Yeah, Squadrons is actually dope. I haven’t played it nearly enough though. I wanted to beat the campaign before going online but gave up because I vastly preferred the empire over the rebels (tie fighters had less shit to worry about).

 

@Vhozitei remember you getting this as well. Was it on PC or PS4?

I have it on PC but I uninstalled like a week later. It’s not bad but it got repetitive real fast with only like 5 maps and 4 ships each faction 

[KingTubb]

1 hour ago, Mattatsu said:

because I vastly preferred the empire over the rebels (tie fighters had less shit to worry about).

Woah, I’m a rebellion guy for sure. Loved shield management, but I will say, power management for the empire was neat. 

[Sonero]

25 minutes ago, Vhozite said:

Lol this whole section is scrub quotes material 

 

What? That's a legit interaction. Not even a specific game interaction, that's a multiple game interaction. Its intrinsic to the design of the game; at this point basically foundational.  Its the same with a normal multihitting projectiles and all the other random stuff they have to do to shake up fireballs. If they just clashed, you could add extra properties and it wouldn't' be that big of a deal. Because they don't, instead you get a mess of things flying at people and trading.

 

If both fireballs knock down, then the trade looks even dumber. Just two fireballs flying across the screen and knocking both people down for shits and giggles. Its about as big a goof as the idea that you can duck fireballs so long as you aren't holding block. Its unintuitive and plays weird.

 

38 minutes ago, DoctaMario said:

The main argument people who don't like NRS games usually throw out there is "it doesn't feel enough like games I usually play" in so many words, and this thread is no different

 

That hasn't been an argument anywhere but it isn't like people are actually taking two seconds to think about anything. I play plenty of games that are different from each other. On top of that I love me some games that are jank. BBTag is fun as hell; BBTag also has absolutely bonkers hilarious nonsense that borders on being offensive. I ain't out here justifying why they made proper balancing decisions. I leave it at the game is fun and that's that.

 

OTOH, NRS fans are probably the most pressed when you mention wack things about their games. If I write down a bunch of stuff that was wack in Calamity Trigger, I doubt Cypher is gonna go out there and defend it. He'll say it was wack and laugh it off. But NRS made that one decision with fireballs and it all looks weird because of it.

 

But it isn't like Capcom hasn't made that mistake. In MvC2 capcom basically made it so that no capcom character could throw projectiles because beams beat single hit projectiles.  Outside of a few single hit projectiles, like Captain Commando's captain fire that was balls fast, beams would just outright beat anything the Capcom side put on the screen. So you basically had a similar mess to NRS games. In MvC3 they spent a crazy amount of time fixing it with durability points and all sorts of nonsense.

 

So in conclusion: MvC2 projectile game was pretty wack, NRS projectiles are double wack and MK stans keep defending Boon like she's some animated waifu.

 

Vhozite out here trying to Omni-Man meme wack mechanics into being good. Not gonna happen.

[Mattatsu]

14 minutes ago, KingTubb said:

Woah, I’m a rebellion guy for sure. Loved shield management, but I will say, power management for the empire was neat. 

I don’t really remember it much tbh. I haven’t played it since like Dec 28th or some shit.

 

If I recall correctly, most rebellion ships had three things to balance, while empire only had two. I also loved the speed and agility of tie fighters.

 

I was a completely ass pilot though and kept banging into things so that’s why I liked less things to worry about lol.

 

I should download it again, it was fun. Maybe there’s more to do. I only remember doing the campaign or practice flying for single player. I am sure there’s a way to just allow basic dog fights or something and I’d definitely need more practice before hopping online

[Mr.Cipher]

9 minutes ago, Sonero said:

OTOH, NRS fans are probably the most pressed when you mention wack things about their games. If I write down a bunch of stuff that was wack in Calamity Trigger, I doubt Cypher is gonna go out there and defend it. He'll say it was wack and laugh it off. But NRS made that one decision with fireballs and it all looks weird because of it.

 

 

Everything regarding Nu-13 was fair balanced and well designed and there isn't a single flaw found within this character.

 

 - this comment was brought to you by a Murakumo Simp.

[Vhozite]

6 minutes ago, Mattatsu said:

I don’t really remember it much tbh. I haven’t played it since like Dec 28th or some shit.

 

If I recall correctly, most rebellion ships had three things to balance, while empire only had two. I also loved the speed and agility of tie fighters.

 

Rebellion ships have to balance power across Shields, Weapons, and Engines. Imperial ships other than than Tie Defender don’t have shields so obvious there is no power to divert there, but the trade off is that their ships are typically faster and more agile. 
 

Personally I’m an X-Wing guy. It’s a good mix of firepower, maneuverability, and durability. TIEs are too frail for my taste. 

[Mattatsu]

Just now, Vhozite said:

Rebellion ships have to balance power across Shields, Weapons, and Engines. Imperial ships other than than Tie Defender don’t have shields so obvious there is no power to divert there, but the trade off is that their ships are typically faster and more agile. 
 

Personally I’m an X-Wing guy. It’s a good mix of firepower, maneuverability, and durability. TIEs are too frail for my taste. 

Yeah.... having a really quick and agile ship that I can’t begin manage and slammed into pillars repeatedly probably wasn’t the best ship for my enjoyment of the game lol

[Darc_Requiem]

@Skort@AriesWarlockQuasimodox just posted some new Juri art. Somebody commissioned him to draw Juri as a wrestler.

 

 

[AriesWarlock]

I dig it!!

[Sonero]

 

[DoctaMario]

53 minutes ago, Sonero said:

OTOH, NRS fans are probably the most pressed when you mention wack things about their games. If I write down a bunch of stuff that was wack in Calamity Trigger, I doubt Cypher is gonna go out there and defend it. He'll say it was wack and laugh it off. But NRS made that one decision with fireballs and it all looks weird because of it.

 

So in conclusion: MvC2 projectile game was pretty wack, NRS projectiles are double wack and MK stans keep defending Boon like she's some animated waifu.

 

Vhozite out here trying to Omni-Man meme wack mechanics into being good. Not gonna happen.

Most pressed because most of the reasons people shit on their games are generally because they don't play like SF or GG. 

 

As has already been said, Sub Zero's ice ball is slow af and easy to telegraph. If projectiles nullified each other in MK, he would be low tier in every game ever because any character with a projectile would have no reason to fear him. The idea that an iceball could go through your own projectiles means you can't spam them, and it's the same with other projectiles, especially at low life. If anything, projectiles not nullifying each other would have made the Capcom characters stronger in MvC, so in a way, this is another point in favor of projectiles NOT nullifying each other being a better mechanic. 

[Volt]

NRS Stans damn near having meltdowns. 🤣

[HD-Man]

I like everything about NRS games BUT the actual game play, shit jerky ass fuck. They fix that stiffness, I'm all in with em 🤣