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The Street Fighter V Thread, vol. 2

misterBee

By misterBee
in Fighting Game Discussion

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CESTUS III Level 15

CESTUS III

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, Darc_Requiem said:

@CESTUS IIISomeone needs to splice that Gief clip with Mika's reaction to Gief tanking the Satsuki's katana in A Shadow Falls. Mika practically getting off and Ibuki's disgust/jealousy is priceless.

pretty sure i did it sonewhere in story thread but God knows wich page lol 

 

Btw Gief instant copy Karin's family secret technique is even more Muscle Power blessing, after all flex hard to tank shit was already his thing 😄  

 

Abel exorcism and total disprect on Rog were good moments too, if only sfv ingame Gief was half strong as canon one lol 😂

 

 

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Mr.Cipher Level 11

Mr.Cipher

Posted
Posted

So, following Kingtubbs post.

Some days ago I was talking with a friend who plays FGs very casually, I was talking with him about difficulty in games in general and how harder games are usually a lot more fun, than easy ones.
Also why something like Elden Ring and Dark Souls is popular when they are hard games.

 

I basically was also discussing why he someone who doesn't like Souls games, plays Nioh a lot.
He basically said, it's because Souls games are very boring and lack depth in their combat. 
Nioh is fast and has a lot of depth with it's mechanics, it is a lot more fun , the difficulty doesn't even bother him at all.
Oddly thats kinda my stance on Fromsoft games too, I don't dislike them but I prefer something like Nioh over it.


So I then mentioned the FG part and said that I was basically with every FG since 2016 disappointed, outside of GBVS but thats a different topic.

Not because they are easy, but because they are just one dimensional, they lack any depth to the game, it's like sitting in a puddle, instead of swimming in an ocean.

GBVS actually was on the edge of that, it was a fine balance between these 2 and then they started nerfing everything.
Haven't played the new version, apparently they reversed a lot of Nerfs.

Anyway, I asked him which FG he would play from whats currently on the market and he oddly enough gravitated to either DBFZ or T7.
As I asked why, he said that the characters in DBFZ look like they do a lot of cool shit and the game looks fast and fluid.
While for T7, he liked how the game looked from watching.
 

We then continued to talk about more popular games, I just noticed something a couple of times.
Why are CS:GO, DoTA and LoL so super popular, when they are actually stupidly hard?
And yes, I call them hard, if you ever tried to play these games at a high level they are stupidly difficult.

 

I think it is actually something I had said to friends for a while.
FGs are incredible shit at teaching you how to play the fucking game. They have garbage tutorials, if they have "good" tutorials they are also trash, because they are so god damn boring that no sane person wants to sit trough that.

Not just are people actually ready to put up with difficult games, they even grind stuff like this.

The main difference I see here, is that getting into a Shooter is infinitly easier than into a FG.
When you start a shooter, you get a gun, get a button to fire and you know shooting the enemy kills them.

When you start a FG, you get not told what to do, you get not told how to play the game, you have to go to menus and red textboxes, watch youtube videos to get combos (because ingame trials are still garbage 90% of the time) and the list goes on.

Something like Auto-combos doesn't fix the problem, it just hides it more.

My one big problem, is that I have no fucking clue how to fix this problem.

 

How can you teach people how to play FGs, without the god awful tutorials we have right now.

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Mattatsu Level 14

Mattatsu

Posted
Posted (edited)

For me, in my experience, the thing that makes SFV less beginner friendly, then say, 3rd Strike, is that the frame data isn’t intuitive in a lot of cases. A lot of stuff that seems like it should be unsafe, isn’t, or at least not enough where an EX DP won’t smack you out of your punish attempt.

 

You don’t need to memorize frame data of course, but it takes a while to fight the natural urge to press a decent range medium button after a move that looks like it should be unsafe. Instead, you should maybe press your fastest light button (which isn’t universal) and see what happens, and then hopefully remember it for next time.

 

To me, as someone who still struggles with this (I’m stupid, I know), it seems like you have to remember (or straight-up memorize) so much more information, much earlier on than you may have to in other games.

 

Do you need that knowledge in other games at a high level? Of course, but in SFV’s case, I feel like that’s a barrier of entry to even just lower mid level, while still dealing with all the mind games and random BS the game throws at you.

 

In 3S, in my experience, you don’t need this stuff early on. You need to learn a few combos, get a feel for your buttons, and then start learning and optimizing your hit-confirms, and working on not being too predictable, which can carry you into the mid-level or close to. The frame data is a lot more intuitive and moves that look like they should be unsafe usually are, and as such, the few outliers are much easier to remember. It seems like once you hit mid level is when you’re learning more OS parries and buffers and stuff that can take you further, and the mid to high level is when you start really needing to acquire the deep knowledge of the various situations that can arise and weighing if you should blue parry an attack, or maybe block and then red parry, etc… To me, 3S, feels like a much more natural skill/knowledge progression. 

Also, SFV is rich in frame traps, which is a tough thing for a newb (like me) to wrap their head around. You get scared. You just never want to press anything and then you eat a tick-throw. That’s when you’re like, fuck it, I guess I’m ultra bronze and need a master’s degree in SFV’s frame data.

 

Edited by Mattatsu
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Mattatsu Level 14

Mattatsu

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, Flackaveli said:

Y'all think Capcom gonna do a emergency patch for Luke?  Kinda like how they did for Abigail during season 3.

 

 

No. I think they want him to be top tier so he’s one of the most common characters you see competitively, as some sort of ploy to hype us up for him in SF6 (which will likely have the adverse effect, because we’ll all hate his guts)

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HeavensCloud Level 13

HeavensCloud

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Mattatsu said:

No. I think they want him to be top tier so he’s one of the most common characters you see competitively, as some sort of ploy to hype us up for him in SF6 (which will likely have the adverse effect, because we’ll all hate his guts)

It kinda reminds me of when they purposefully made Yun and Yang top tier in AE of SF4.  Maybe they want us to "band" together to figure out how to fight Luke.  

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Pair of Rooks Level 14

Pair of Rooks

Posted
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, HeavensCloud said:

It kinda reminds me of when they purposefully made Yun and Yang top tier in AE of SF4.  Maybe they want us to "band" together to figure out how to fight Luke.  

which reminds us of the time when we all didn't do that and instead said wtf capcom fix your game 

 

look if fg makers are gonna play stupid games with balance then maybe their gonna win a stupid prize.  

 

 

Can you imagine going back to 2014 or so and saying Look everyone's gonna dodge SF and frickin Guily Gear will carry the FGC they'd all be like what fucking natural disaster had to happen in your timeline

 

Edited by Pair of Rooks
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delete_me Level 12

delete_me

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Hawkingbird said:

@Darc_Requiem

 

People will be forced to respect Lariat now. 

 

As if that button wasn't retarded enough already. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you do this option select and then slightly delay another Lariat in case they neither get hit or V-Reversal you'll also cleanly beat a V-Shift attempt.

 

Or in other words, this is a very classic "just take the throw" scenario.

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Volt Level 15

Volt

Posted
Posted
On 4/9/2022 at 7:19 PM, Mr.Cipher said:

Something like Auto-combos doesn't fix the problem, it just hides it more.

My one big problem, is that I have no fucking clue how to fix this problem.

 

How can you teach people how to play FGs, without the god awful tutorials we have right now.

Imo, having an P4A-like Autocombo that not only serves as a basic damage option for rookies but also has a function in higher-level play is good. A lot of AC options in other games failed to do that, which is why they're so hated.

 

Now, there are two things about the tutorials.

 

The first is that even if you have a legit good one, they're still branded as a tutorial.

 

To make things worse, a lot of games waste time killing their momentum from the jump. What I mean by that are the insulting tutorials that start with things like "Press forward to move your character forward!".

 

You can easily disguise those behind a quick button check.

 

As for actually teaching, a lot of games got the basic stuff like how to AA down to some extent.

 

Keep it short, keep it simple, have it give out a little reward like in-game currency for cosmetics so people actually do them, and there you go.

 

Another thing that could be done, but is considerably harder to implement are CPUs that actually help players develop good habits. It's easier to practice and warm-up against a bot than to just hop in ranked and figure it out on the fly.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Volt said:

Imo, having an P4A-like Autocombo that not only serves as a basic damage option for rookies but also has a function in higher-level play is good. A lot of AC options in other games failed to do that, which is why they're so hated.

 

Nah, a lot of fuckers hate on ACs simply because they are misguided in that execution = depth in fgs.

It is true to certain extent, but if the game is build around ACs, there isnt really a problem, games like DBFZ, DNF and BBTAG for example, place their depth and execution needs and complexity in other places, so the ACs serve a purpose to ease the barrier entry, specially on games like BBTAG, DBFZ DNF and GBFVS that are designed to be in some way an entry point for newcomers.

(Something that I have seen first had, where a lot of people entered my country's community thanks to games like DBFZ, and now are branching to other fgs, or people who don't play fgs being ecxited about DNF)

 

I understand if they are added to games that historically didn't have them, and are mostly an afterthought, or at least feel like that, like MvCI and KOFXIV (haven't played enough of KOFXV to know how it fairs).

 

But in other cases, they work more or less like a target combo, at least that is how i see them in games like GBFVS, DNF and MBTL.

 

Just to give you an idea of how deluded some people are.

I saw a Vesper Arcade video where fools where asking for 1f links as a deliberate choice for bnbs to return, for "depth".

 

Which is idiotic.

1F links shouldn't be a thing forced into every combo, even less bnbs.

They should be something that emerges from players experimenting and discovering stuff through the frame data, and by pushing the game limits, not something arbitrary decided by the designers in a misguided attempt to add "depth".

Edited by Hecatom
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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted

BTW, I remember joking about AC's becoming the norm years ago on the Daemon Bride thread (that game had them some time before P4A), and people were basically saying "Don't Put that Evil on Me Ricky Bobby" for even suggesting that and other shit 🤣

Turns out i prophesized a lot of current design trends for most fgs now days.

 

Why i can't predict stuff that benefits me economically is beyond me.

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Shakunetsu said:

Snip

 

I think there is a place for F2P fighting games, or at least components for the games.

They can serve as entry points for newcomers, since there isn't a monetary requirement to try them.

 

I think that having a version of the game where you have a selection of characters form the roster rotating  that works in tandem with a normal release is not a bad thing.

Like a free weekend, but permanently, wher you have this module of the game where players can download and play against people who bought the complete game, like DOA6.

The problem i know people have is how they tend to be monetized, and that currently most items and chars on F2P games are overpriced as fuck, like just see apex where a single character can cost you up to 20 bucks.

 

for example Brawlhala until just recently iirc, didn't have a real option for you to buy all the chars, that wasn't through the classic f2p monetization schemes.

Adding not so long ago the option to buy them  for $20, at least from what i remember.

Before that it was basically either gambling or buying past season passes (at least from what i know, i could be wrong though)

 

Then there is also the fact that f2p games have created this paradigm where they need to be constantly updated to feel fresh, and in many cases, this affects the balance, since they create situations, like in LoL, where you see changes being drastic, forcing chars out of the meta.

 

 

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted
Just now, Darc_Requiem said:

I feel you. I'm always giving people great advice Helping them excel and do better. Now when it comes to myself....yeah not so much. I'm glad I like helping others. Somebody should get to eat. I certainly won't be the one.

 

Yeah, it sucks to be the one giving sound advice in a lot of shit, but not being able to put said advice in practice on your own life because reasons, lol.

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Volt Level 15

Volt

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Hecatom said:

Nah, a lot of fuckers hate on AC simply because they are misguided in that execution = depth in fgs.

Yes, but these people are too stupid to be worth mentioning because of things like this:

1 hour ago, Hecatom said:

Just to give you an idea of how deluded some people are.

I saw a Vesper Arcade video where fools where asking for 1f links as a deliberate choice for bnbs to return, for "depth".

 

What makes Autocombos look bad are things like what say, KoF got. Mashing jab for a horribly unoptimized autocombo that you can't manually cancel out of and is horribly punishable.

 

The only use for it at anything above the most basic level of play is a mashable confirm for laggy scenarios where you don't need a lot to kill. That's pretty damn useless and gets in the way when you want to link jabs on a blockstring. (Disclaimer: I don't know if people do that in KoF lol)

 

Meanwhile, P4A's ACs had a unique use (meter/burst gain) and could be canceled into other things. That means that you have more freedom and depth out of it. There's a legit choice to be made when it comes to damage vs. meter routes because of that. And it still worked as a basic confirm for people that hadn't played FGs.

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Mr.Cipher Level 11

Mr.Cipher

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Volt said:

Imo, having an P4A-like Autocombo that not only serves as a basic damage option for rookies but also has a function in higher-level play is good. A lot of AC options in other games failed to do that, which is why they're so hated.

 

Now, there are two things about the tutorials.

 

The first is that even if you have a legit good one, they're still branded as a tutorial.

 

To make things worse, a lot of games waste time killing their momentum from the jump. What I mean by that are the insulting tutorials that start with things like "Press forward to move your character forward!".

 

You can easily disguise those behind a quick button check.

 

As for actually teaching, a lot of games got the basic stuff like how to AA down to some extent.

 

Keep it short, keep it simple, have it give out a little reward like in-game currency for cosmetics so people actually do them, and there you go.

 

Another thing that could be done, but is considerably harder to implement are CPUs that actually help players develop good habits. It's easier to practice and warm-up against a bot than to just hop in ranked and figure it out on the fly.

 

When I think about Auto-combos P4A is the last game I think about. For the simple reason that it is not a wrong version of it.
When I think about Auto-combos I think about something like DBFZ or the latest fuck up in that department  Melty Blood.

 

Rest are valid points, stuff needs to be done quick and simple, don't have screenfilling textboxes and don't expect people to not know that you move forward by pressing forward.

 

I also don't think that execution = depth
Not having enough meat in the game to sink your teeth into brings that problem , Execution requirements for difficult but rewarding stuff is always fine, but shit like locking characters base functionality behind  shit like 1f links is absolute nonsense.
It is why I like Gatlings so much, you can always string something together without needing much execution.

 

Most new FGs are so shallow on their mechanical site, that they just become boring really fast. Doesn't help that they are balanced around minus frames so even just pressuring doesn't make much fun.

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-PVL93- Level 13

-PVL93-

Posted
Posted

F2P may be the future of fighting games (as it removes the massive investment barrier of 60$ for titles that die out within months or even weeks) however I don't trust any current FG devs with doing that business model justice and they will just fuck it up with either completely braindead microtransactions schemes that drive you towards opening your wallet, or nickle and dime you at every corner for most basic features and modes

 

*maybe* I could see NRS doing a Mortal Kombat 13 F2P (but then again why would they, their games sell millions as is) just because of the publisher backing

Capcom, ArcSys, Namco, Koei Tecmo don't really have any success stories with this business model

Sega sent out Virtua Fighter to die (even despite the supposedly 10+ million downloads), VF6 could be years away or not happening at all

everybody else is too small so they need to actually sell their original titles to make any kind of profit

 

Project L obviously will lead the charge thanks to the financial security Riot Games have because of the massive playerbase and income from League as well as being owned by Tencent

 

but that's about it

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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, PVL_93_RU said:

Yeah sorry but I don't want this genre to turn into a barbie dress up simulator with every game having 1000s of costumes

 

 

Sorry, but then what do you suggest?

Because you say you are against them making money from a f2p game with how severe your stance seem to be on your 1st post.

Of course they want you to open your wallet, if the game is free to play, they need to make money somehow.

Yet don't want them to make money through something that will have 0 impact on the gameplay, costumes is the most harmless way to make money on a f2p game, is fucking optional, and you are not forced to buy any of them, and gives options to people who actually care about this and gives the devs a way to monetize the game.

 

Your stance is simply irrational.

 

Is like all the fuckers that complain about the DoA games having the costumes dlc.

Like if Tecmo releasing them is forcing them to buy them.

Is like  a market having a lot of different ice creams on shelves and people getting mad because of it.

Edited by Hecatom
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Hecatom Level 18

Hecatom

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, PVL_93_RU said:

I'm not opposed to F2P as a concept

 

I just don't trust the modern games industry to do the model correctly without squeezing every single dollar out of you

 

I get that.

But going by your posts, you are not only saying that, but also saying that you don't want them to go the route of cosmetics, which, is the most harmless way to monetize a game, simply because you don't want the games to be "dress up" games.

 

So what would be your solution.

 

Because you don't want them to force you to open your wallet.

I assume, by having to buy characters.

But you don't want them to sell cosmetics either.

 

So what then?

How does a F2P game earn money to keep the game going beyond launch?

 

They can't keep giving everything for free.

 

People don't want revisions, don't want to pay for dlc chars, don't want to pay for costumes, want that on an hypothetical f2p game they can earn everything for free easily.

 

So, you don't want people to charge money for their work?

 

Edited by Hecatom
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-PVL93- Level 13

-PVL93-

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Volt said:

But costumes are the one way to reach that without interfering on gameplay, wtf are you smoking?

betting it all on purely cosmetics isn't a sure-way to guarantee your game will have a steady flow of cash. Like look at Battlefield V - it was promised years of free content, while DICE assumed they could finance the development through skins for weapons and soldiers. The game was still abandoned even despite the initial 60$ paywall. And here we're talking about an already much nicher genre making a full time switch to F2P, removing that first investment

 

It's why so many F2P projects also abuse practices like paid premium currencies or limited time items, as well as driving up the prices of other content and making the games grindier so people lose patience and open up their wallets regardless

 

Like I said, Namco and NRS would probably be among the first to have the worst practices were Tekken 8 and MK12 to go free-to-play. I mean fuck's sake we've just recently had Bamco unironically sell an essential feature like frame data for 5$, and also NRS redesigning the Krypt that hurt it in the short-to-mid term

 

That's not to mention the complete eradication of unlockable cosmetics if every game in the genre goes full DOA

and despite the 10 millon downloads for DOA5 Core that was reported 5 years ago, we don't have the statistics of player retention, even if a couple of whales stayed no mater what and continued to goggle up new waifu clothing

 

does that make my stance clearer?

Edited by PVL_93_RU
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